So... I won’t be getting a Rolec

[Generator]

It’s this rush to get the job done and leave a barely acceptable finish rather than an excellent one that caused me to pull in my own cable, routed exactly how I wanted, hidden behind skirting and buried under the stone flagstones in my back garden. Even so, it only took me an afternoon to do without professional tools (although I’d have given my right arm for a decent SDS drill)

With a bit of thought and planning, the need for ugly plastic trunking and shoddy cable clipping is removed and the job itself takes no longer. This smash ‘n’ grab approach just leaves a bad taste. Some of the shoddy installs on YouTube and other sites like this one make my teeth itch.

If you do go to the trouble I did though, don’t expect any discount.. EO for instance, on witnessing the fact that I had provided them with a cable end clipped to the wall next to the consumer unit, with the other cable end clipped to the wall outside at the charging point and an earth rod already installed with earth wire run in, merely demoted the cost to a ‘standard install’. I’ve saved them the cost of the cable, the clips, the earth rod, the earth rod junction box, the earth clamp, the screws, plugs an fasteners, the earthing wire and all the labour of fitting it all. All they have to do is finish the job;

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Frankly, if I'd had someone supply and pull their own (hidden) cable I'd have walked away and refused to do the job, on the basis that I would be lying if I signed the EIC.

There's a requirement (mandatory for a Part P notifiable installation) that every part of the installation is physically inspected, as well as tested. If someone else supplies and pulls the cable through an inaccessible location, then I'd have no way of knowing if the cable is correctly installed, doesn't run through any insulation, is correctly supported along it's whole length, is clear from any heat source, etc.

 

[Generator]

Frankly, if I'd had someone supply and pull their own (hidden) cable I'd have walked away and refused to do the job, on the basis that I would be lying if I signed the EIC.

There's a requirement (mandatory for a Part P notifiable installation) that every part of the installation is physically inspected, as well as tested. If someone else supplies and pulls the cable through an inaccessible location, then I'd have no way of knowing if the cable is correctly installed, doesn't run through any insulation, is correctly supported along it's whole length, is clear from any heat source, etc.

Then it’s probably a good job I’ve photographed the entire installation, and all but a few inches of the cable are still available for close inspection should they require it. Given they can’t be bothered to clip a cable properly when they install it though, I’m entirely doubtful that they will apply the same level of rigour you would.

 

[Asterix187]

Our installer (Stratford Energy) did a great job on our Rolec charger 2 years ago now. It’s been faultless ever since and had a nice tidy install.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Then it’s probably a good job I’ve photographed the entire installation, and all but a few inches of the cable are still available for close inspection should they require it. Given they can’t be bothered to clip a cable properly when they install it though, I’m entirely doubtful that they will apply the same level of rigour you would.

Doesn't matter. The requirement is that whoever signs the installation off has to physically inspect the whole installation, with their own eyes.

The fact there are are a lot of monkeys about who haven't been properly trained, or just can't be arsed, to do a proper job doesn't change the regs. I have a great deal of sympathy for competent DIY'ers that take more care and attention when doing a job than professionals, but I've seen even really good DIY'ers screw up big time, just because they've not realised the more subtle implications of the regs. Often it's the subtle stuff that catches people out, like cable derating when it passes through insulation, failing to adequately support cables, etc.

Things are exacerbated for anyone signing off a Part P notifiable installation, as the Part P cartels prohibit the majority of their members from signing off an installation that includes work done by a third party that they've been unable to inspect. Someone signing off such an installation in Part P land (England and Wales) risks losing their ticket if they get found out.

 

[Generator]

The requirement is fulfilled. They are free to inspect everything. The entire cable route is visible, barring the penetration through the wall, but if the desire really takes hold they can always pull it back and peer into the hole themselves. It’s not as though I’ve buried the thing behind behind finished and painted plaster work, and even if he was concerned about the de-rating factors of any insulation that he can or cannot see, it’s a 10mm2 armoured cable, able to carry the required current in such onerous conditions. The requirement is to inspect. So they can inspect. The requirement is not to ‘protect revenue streams by only choosing to inspect work that I’ve done myself’.

It’s exactly this sort of ‘wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole mate’ protectionism that scares people off of doing a simple task such as this and getting ripped off as a result. It’s a cable. It’s readily apparent what it is, where it is, and how it’s installed. I’m not paying an electrician to do a labourers work just because he might have a little hissy fit and not sign it off because the god like status he feels he has attained through Part P still hasn’t afforded him the X-ray vision he needs to see through walls.

We seem to have forgotten in this country just who is paying who. I want a job done, and I’m willing to pay a fair price for it. What I’m not willing to do is be exploited or receive shoddy, rushed work that is below what I feel is an acceptable standard.

 

[R.A.G]

So have we established the title of this thread is a little misleading and your issue is with the sub contractor not Rolec or their product lol!

 

[JCremonini]

So have we established the title of this thread is a little misleading and your issue is with the sub contractor not Rolec or their product lol!

Title is not misleading. It says I won’t be getting a Rolec, which I won’t . It does not imply why or make any reference to fault.

 

[R.A.G]

Title is not misleading. It says I won’t be getting a Rolec, which I won’t . It does not imply why or make any reference to fault.

Okey dokey

 

[Glan gluaisne]

The requirement is fulfilled. They are free to inspect everything. The entire cable route is visible, barring the penetration through the wall, but if the desire really takes hold they can always pull it back and peer into the hole themselves. It’s not as though I’ve buried the thing behind behind finished and painted plaster work, and even if he was concerned about the de-rating factors of any insulation that he can or cannot see, it’s a 10mm2 armoured cable, able to carry the required current in such onerous conditions. The requirement is to inspect. So they can inspect. The requirement is not to ‘protect revenue streams by only choosing to inspect work that I’ve done myself’.

It’s exactly this sort of ‘wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole mate’ protectionism that scares people off of doing a simple task such as this and getting ripped off as a result. It’s a cable. It’s readily apparent what it is, where it is, and how it’s installed. I’m not paying an electrician to do a labourers work just because he might have a little hissy fit and not sign it off because the god like status he feels he has attained through Part P still hasn’t afforded him the X-ray vision he needs to see through walls.

We seem to have forgotten in this country just who is paying who. I want a job done, and I’m willing to pay a fair price for it. What I’m not willing to do is be exploited or receive shoddy, rushed work that is below what I feel is an acceptable standard.

If the whole run is visible, and can be seen to be running in safe zones, adequately supported, protected where needed, derated as required if in insulation, kept clear of heat sources, not in contact with materials known to degrade some types of cable insulation, buried at an appropriate depth, with trenches left open for inspection, with the appropriate warning tape ready to be placed the required distance above the cable, etc, then that's fine.

That's not how I read the description of the cable being pulled.

 

[Generator]

By safe zones, do you mean prescribed zones?

 

[Glan gluaisne]

By safe zones, do you mean prescribed zones?

Both. Prescribed zones are pretty clearly defined, but there are other considerations for safe routing of cables, like being run through joists at least 50mm below the edge, to minimise the risk of being hit by a nail securing the floor boards, using steel cable protection plates or similar where there is an accidental risk of penetration, maintaining at least 25 mm separation from gas pipework, 50mm separation from data cables, etc.

 

[Adopado]

Both. Prescribed zones are pretty clearly defined, but there are other considerations for safe routing of cables, like being run through joists at least 50mm below the edge, to minimise the risk of being hit by a nail securing the floor boards, using steel cable protection plates or similar where there is an accidental risk of penetration, maintaining at least 25 mm separation from gas pipework, 50mm separation from data cables, etc.

So, my own professional installation has the main cable going down the inside wall of a wooden garage from the mini consumer unit. When the lapped boards on the outside come loose it is not unreasonable to think that I might whack a big nail through to hold them in place ... yet there's no additional protection between the wood inside and the cable ... and it's all nicely signed off. Interesting!

 

[Glan gluaisne]

So, my own professional installation has the main cable going down the inside wall of a wooden garage from the mini consumer unit. When the lapped boards on the outside come loose it is not unreasonable to think that I might whack a big nail through to hold them in place ... yet there's no additional protection between the wood inside and the cable ... and it's all nicely signed off. Interesting!

If the cable is protected at it's supply end by an RCD, then all that will happen is that it will trip if the cable is penetrated and there's enough earth leakage. The regs allow this, although my view is that it's far, far better to ensure that cables are placed where they are least likely to be damaged by any future work. Sticking to the 50mm below the surface rule, even for an RCD protected cable, makes sense to me, as the cost and disruption caused by having to replace an accidentally damaged cable seems a nuisance. By the same token, I've always fitted steel plates over (or under) cables passing through joists, as they provide a fair degree of protection against accidental penetration and they cost peanuts in the overall scheme of things.

 

[Durzel]

I’ve said it elsewhere but I think there are times where you just have to swallow your pride and accept that you’re going to have to pay more than you need to get something done.

No one wants to get ripped off, but at the same time if you’re of the mindset where you want to bring your own food to a restaurant for them to cook, and then be charged a nominal fee to eat it there, rather than what they normally charge, then you’re probably going to find it hard to find people to deal with you.

For my upcoming install I am having to dig the 5 meter or so trench myself, or pay them £350 to do it. I don’t think they particularly care to do it themselves since it’s not a sparky job anyway, so they were perfectly fine for me to say I’d do it. But they are also charging me £80 for a 2 way CU, and £8/metre for the power cable.

I don’t doubt for a moment that I couldn’t just go down Screwfix and buy the cable and the CU, save some money, run it, and present them with just two unterminated ends as you did (though from the sounds of what @Jeremy Harris is saying they couldn’t sign off on that anyway).

I don’t want the job to become unpalatable for them though. I’ve had issues in the past trying to get places to fit my own supplied tyres, and I’ve certainly had instances where I’ve bought something but needed someone to fit it and they’ve simply massaged their normal price to make it so that I haven’t saved much if anything anyway.

I guess what I’m saying is that because I know I have to pay the £400 standard install on mine anyway, then I’m simply not bothering to do anything but the digging (which would cost extra), even though I probably could, and just accepting that this is the way the system works.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Just to be clear, I would very much like the Part P rules to be changed, to allow a competent DIY'er to do their own installation and testing. That's already started to happen, as the Part P rules were relaxed a while ago to allow some work that had previously been a Part P only job to be done by anyone competent.

The reality is, though, for every careful and competent DIY'er there are probably 50 complete w*nk*rs, who will do the most appalling and dangerous bodge jobs. I'd guess that many who have bought an older house may well have discovered some of the horrors that the incompetent can inflict on an electrical installation. The changes in the regs to include much better protection at the CU end are partly a reaction to these sort of issues.

It's fair to say that there are also some people who call themselves competent, are a member of one of the Part P cartels, yet still do dodgy work. I'm retired, so cannot hold a Part P ticket (the cartels won't allow retired people to remain members) and had to employ a Part P chap to install a temporary building supply installation (about 3 hours work) to our building site (as it was then). He left the installation in a dangerous state, so dangerous that I'd have given it a C1 and insisted that the supply be isolated until the defects were rectified. Faults ranged from relatively minor (blue sleeving being used on PEs), through more significant (failing to fit the fixing rings to SWA glands, so the armour wasn't properly connected to PE), to positively dangerous (exposed line and neutral conductors poking out of a Henly). When I tested the installation after he'd left, I found that the 16 A DP RCBO he'd installed to protect a commando socket failed to trip, so I doubt his MFT even left the back of his van (I wasn't on site when he did the work).

 

[JCremonini]

Small update. So, I found another installer who offer Tesla and EO mini chargers. We went through the pictures I had taken before and paid particular attention to the issues the Rolec installer had. They were in agreement with me and said this is a standard installation.

So... just need to decide if I want EO or Tesla, I am siding with EO at the moment . I know the Tesla unit has some advantages but I cannot justify another £500 just for something that opens the flap and offers remote diags on the car.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

So... just need to decide if I want EO or Tesla, I am siding with EO at the moment . I know the Tesla unit has some advantages but I cannot justify another £500 just for something that opens the flap and offers remote diags on the car.

I've just ordered a kit to add the charge port opening functionality to any Type 2 connector. I was going to homebrew it, as making up a small board to send the 50 bit code over a 433.92MHz OOK link looked to be fairly easy (the code's in the public domain), but the kit looked easier and wasn't that expensive. Looks fairly easy to install, too: Tesla retrofit button kit - evChargeking

The same company can supply a Type 2 Tesla compatible cable, with the button built in, for much less than the cost difference between the EO and Tesla EVSEs.

 

[arg]

Frankly, if I'd had someone supply and pull their own (hidden) cable I'd have walked away and refused to do the job, on the basis that I would be lying if I signed the EIC.

This is why I always advise people planning to DIY part of the job to talk to the installer first so that they can then honestly sign the 'design' block on the certificate, agree spec and sources of materials, and agree what needs to be made available for inspection/test (trenches left open, boards left loose etc). Usually a good accommodation can be arrived at that way, while presenting the installer with a fait acompli usually leaves someone unhappy - either the installer having his arm twisted to sign a certificate, or the customer unhappy at having to re-do the work.

Looks fairly easy to install, too:

Although they supply it all as one, if retrofitting it to a standard unit there's something to be said for installing it in two parts: the radio transmitter needs power, so a battery if you hide it in the connector (battery then not easy to replace), but doesn't actually need to be in the connector as it works from some metres distance; the unlock-at-end-of-charge function however has to be in the connector, but it's just a switch and no electronics or power supply required.

But whichever way you go, the trickiest part of the whole job is elegantly mounting a button onto the connector while maintaining its integrity.

 

[Glan gluaisne]

Although they supply it all as one, if retrofitting it to a standard unit there's something to be said for installing it in two parts: the radio transmitter needs power, so a battery if you hide it in the connector (battery then not easy to replace), but doesn't actually need to be in the connector as it works from some metres distance; the unlock-at-end-of-charge function however has to be in the connector, but it's just a switch and no electronics or power supply required.

But whichever way you go, the trickiest part of the whole job is elegantly mounting a button onto the connector while maintaining its integrity.

I've been looking at using power from the CP. There are a couple of options, I think. One is to just use the constant +12 V from the CP to power the circuit, via a diode, current limiting resistor, capacitor big enough to power the transmitter for a few seconds and a regulator. The thing would only work when the EVSE was idling, with the CP at +12V, but that seems fine, as it only needs to transmit when it's not plugged in.

Another option might be to use the idle power from the CP to charge a cell. Seems easy enough, as the charge current needed is tiny, so shouldn't load the CP enough to fool it into thinking there's a connection. Drawing, say, 50 to 100µA from the CP to charge the cell would only cause a 50 to 100mV drop, not enough to cause a problem. The transmitter and µcontroller doesn't need much power, so a fairly small lithium cell, with a bit of charge and discharge control circuitry, should do the job.

Looking inside a Type 2 connector there seems to be a fair bit of room, and a flat area on the top that looks like it would neatly take a small weatherproof button. Probably take longer to fiddle around making a hole for the button etc than it would to do the rest of the mod.