So THESE items are legal - but the press is losing its mind over Autopilot?

[James Anders]

There's a fundamental difference here. Our society can more easily deal with people dying in accidents due to human error (we're only human) than compared to some software issue - even though there might be orders of magnitude less death.

10,000 people dead due to driver incompetence or acts of "God"? We can deal with that.

10 deaths due to drivers relying on software to control their vehicle? Unacceptable.

This is human nature.

 

[javawolfpack]

@James Anders I think this is our inherent egos that those other humans were idiots, I can do a far better job than any computer/other driver on the road.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Riding a motorcycle. Without a helmet in many states.

Motorcyclists suffer astronomically high fatality rates -- roughly 25 times higher than automobile passengers per mile driven. Motorcycle Crashes

(And not bashing motorcyclists -- I used to ride and have no objection to anyone (other than my family) riding.)

There is a big difference between things that put yourself at risk, and put others at risk. Motorcycle helmets are classic personal risk and any laws are there as part of the social contract that says society will provide education and welfare even if you're an unproductive fool. Ballistic weapons and vehicle control laws are very much about the safety of others balanced against the benefits of personal freedom. Seat belts and knives come somewhere in between.

 

[James Anders]

Posts on several threads on TMC seem to argue that AP is dangerous and should be outlawed because people can do stupid things against the advice of Tesla. I don't see that that is any different than making a car stable enough that people can generally text and drive and get away with it till... well, till they can't. If these people were consistent in their logic they would be pushing for cars to have built in instabilities so that you had to keep both hands on the steering wheel just to stay in the lane. That would prevent texting while driving along with holding a cell phone.

That's somewhat of an exaggerated argument.

Taking your hands off the wheel shouldn't increase one's risk. But it does. There's no way around that argument at the present time. Either the vehicle automatically steers or it doesn't.

There are reasonable steps that could be taken to mitigate the human bozo factor while still letting the technology improve.

AP could refuse to operate unless road conditions or road mapping indicates.

Question... Does AP activate in rain or snow? If so, that should be disabled.

Tesla could also be more pro-active in training or educational efforts. How about an online review that must be completed satisfactorily before AP is enabled. This would be easy to implement under MyTesla accounts.

I'm sure there are other steps as well.

To simply put it all onto the driver with this new and different technology, where there are many subtleties involved is just asking for problems.

 

[mibaro2]

"taking your hands off the wheel shouldn't increase ones risk, but it does." ....Wait....

Then shouldn't cars without AP force me to keep both hands on the wheel? How many people drive one handed, or with their knees...isn't that dangerous?
So bottom line is any car that is manufactured today should force you to keep your hands on the wheel. Or else all cars are dangerous!

 

[javawolfpack]

@mibaro2 also, interestingly modern cars you shouldn't keep your hands at 10 & 2 as was commonly taught in driver's education for years (including when I did it), as the airbag deployment makes this less safe... they actually recommend holding it at the bottom of the wheel now not the top for this reason.

But I think AP should be a bit more aggressive in forcing the driver to keep a hand on the wheel. I've seen users indicate that they went "hands free" for 30 mins+ without it alerting them.

 

[182RG]

The safest GA plane has no parachute but it is almost impossible to stall and spin - the Diamond DA40.

A great flying, predictable airplane. I have a couple of hundred hours in a DA-40 steam gauge. It's other strong safety attribute is its aluminum fuel tank design and placement between the spars in the wings for impact safety. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a DA40 burning after a crash. Cirrus, eh...not so much. Wet wings tend to turn into BBQs. 182RG, same thing...just over your head.

 

[James Anders]

"taking your hands off the wheel shouldn't increase ones risk, but it does." ....Wait....

Then shouldn't cars without AP force me to keep both hands on the wheel? How many people drive one handed, or with their knees...isn't that dangerous?
So bottom line is any car that is manufactured today should force you to keep your hands on the wheel. Or else all cars are dangerous!

Surely you understand that the public perceives people and computers differently. The argument that AP could save X number of lives more but will still cause Y deaths is hard for the public to grasp.

 

[RichardL]

The argument that AP could save X number of lives more but will still cause Y deaths is hard for the public to grasp.

Agree, this is the same as the (IMHO stupid) argument, that people didn't want to wear a seatbelt, so they would not be 'trapped' and could be 'thrown clear'

 

[EinSV]

Surely you understand that the public perceives people and computers differently. The argument that AP could save X number of lives more but will still cause Y deaths is hard for the public to grasp.

So basically you are saying that Tesla should not allow people who want driver assist features that save lives to have them because other people are irrationally afraid of progress and technology. I don't agree with that.

If the medical profession adopted that approach we would still be using leeches and witch doctors. I'm sure getting stuck with a needle full of a derivative of mold (penicillin) was unsettling to people at first as well -- people hate needles and are not too fond of mold. But they got over it.

 

[Drivin]

They are doing a horrid job of reporting an event, Forbes posted an article yesterday that initially read that the Tesla's 4 cameras failed to prevent the recent tragedy, when there is only 1 camera with AP 1.0. They've since corrected it, but it seems to me based on most of the press I've read that the reporters aren't taking the time to even look up simple details about the technology they are writing about, let alone bothering to research how the technology works. It's simply lazy reporting and shows how the modern media cycle plays an impact in accurate reporting.

I think Tesla has done a poor job marketing what Autopilot can actually do and has oversold the capabilities of the technology it currently provides. But the tech it's currently selling isn't unique to Tesla it's just one of the best implementations of all of it put together out there currently.

I agree. But remember the horrid reporting is all over the map. The driver was watching HP, wait, he was only listening to HP, there was a player still operating, no it wasn't.

This is not about the press "losing its mind" over AP. It is about (typical) lazy reporting (vs. investigative journalism or at least solid reporting). The over-reaction to this is from the people losing their minds.

 

[Drivin]

There's a fundamental difference here. Our society can more easily deal with people dying in accidents due to human error (we're only human) than compared to some software issue - even though there might be orders of magnitude less death.
.

No, that is not the cause.

This is just the beginning of what people are worried about - that AI is dangerous since it will start the killer robots.
Here are two people who should know about this.
Elon Musk and Stephen Hawking warn over 'killer robots'

And just yesterday, a security robot hurt a kid
Stanford Shopping Center: Mall docks robot cops after kid hit

But others think that we are just part of a video game, so this can all get rebooted anyway. We need to do the reboot before more deaths occur.
Elon Musk Thinks That Our Existence Is Someone Else's Video Game

Musk is right again! There is a real danger here.

 

[James Anders]

"taking your hands off the wheel shouldn't increase ones risk, but it does." ....Wait....

Then shouldn't cars without AP force me to keep both hands on the wheel? How many people drive one handed, or with their knees...isn't that dangerous?
So bottom line is any car that is manufactured today should force you to keep your hands on the wheel. Or else all cars are dangerous!

You're trying to compare decades of learned and familiar behavior to new and unfamiliar behavior. Different things entirely.

This is a new groundbreaking technology and some thought should be invested to introduce this technology into the populace.

There's a difference between pre-existing behaviors compared to establishing new paradigms. We know cigarettes are bad but we continue to educate and change behaviors instead of outright banning.

 

[James Anders]

So basically you are saying that Tesla should not allow people who want driver assist features that save lives to have them because other people are irrationally afraid of progress and technology. I don't agree with that.

If the medical profession adopted that approach we would still be using leeches and witch doctors. I'm sure getting stuck with a needle full of a derivative of mold (penicillin) was unsettling to people at first as well -- people hate needles and are not too fond of mold. But they got over it.

No that's not what I'm saying at all.

Have you read my posts?

I've said that Tesla needs to do more to ensure Joe Average drivers understand the system, the limitations and proper use. There's a disconnect here. There's no real education or training or review provided.

I was aware of AP functionality and enabled and tried it. I'm sure there are many Tesla drivers who aren't truly aware of the limitations. Do you disagree?

Once again, perhaps Tesla should require on-line tutorials or education that must be successfully completed prior to AP activation.

Or perhaps Tesla could do more to disable AP on inappropriate roads.

To use your medical analogy - people are educated and aware prior to entering a clinical trial for a new drug. All I'm saying is there should be more effort put forth to ensure proper and safe usage.

Don't make it sound like I'm a Luddite wanting to strip away your right to use this new technology.

There's also the legal aspect here which often defies pure logic. Having a new Tesla driver successfully complete an online tutorial on the proper use and limitations of an ever-evolving AP technology followed by the agreement of the driver that he/she understands these limitations might go a long way to deflate any potential legal action against Tesla.

 

[TaoJones]

Precisely the poster's point I think. We are ok with guns but don't expect the same responsible ownership with autos. Instead we blame the manufacturer of the car.

And legally can hold the auto manufacturer responsible. Much harder to do that to firearms makers in the US due to laws enacted by the gun lobby to protect firearms manufacturers. Not that this helps much. See the years it took to hold GM, Toyota, Honda and VW responsible.

In the end, personal responsibility and accountability will win the day. I wish more drivers would be more aware of the impact of their lack of thinking. Yesterday I avoided 4 accidents in 4 minutes - all under 35mph, and all having nothing to do with DriverAssist features and everything to do with drivers and pedestrians making poor choices.

 

[EinSV]

No that's not what I'm saying at all.

Have you read my posts?

I've said that Tesla needs to do more to ensure Joe Average drivers understand the system, the limitations and proper use. There's a disconnect here. There's no real education or training or review provided.

I was aware of AP functionality and enabled and tried it. I'm sure there are many Tesla drivers who aren't truly aware of the limitations. Do you disagree?

Once again, perhaps Tesla should require on-line tutorials or education that must be successfully completed prior to AP activation.

Or perhaps Tesla could do more to disable AP on inappropriate roads.

To use your medical analogy - people are educated and aware prior to entering a clinical trial for a new drug. All I'm saying is there should be more effort put forth to ensure proper and safe usage.

Don't make it sound like I'm a Luddite wanting to strip away your right to use this new technology.

There's also the legal aspect here which often defies pure logic. Having a new Tesla driver successfully complete an online tutorial on the proper use and limitations of an ever-evolving AP technology followed by the agreement of the driver that he/she understands these limitations might go a long way to deflate any potential legal action against Tesla.

I am not sure it is necessary but I don't think it would be a bad idea for Tesla to provide a short training video to reinforce what they already teach drivers through the manuals, screens, etc. People absorb information in different ways and this certainly couldn't hurt, which is why I suggested it in an earlier post on a different thread.

Your posts on this page appeared to be making a different point. If that was not your intention then I'm glad we cleared that up!

 

[Terra117]

Please don't get into the gun rights issue. Responsible gun ownership is no different than responsible vehicle ownership.

And we all know how attentive and restrained vehicle owners are.

 

[BobtheV]

It's difficult to have freedoms in a nanny state. It's almost an oxymoron.

Anybody who says "nanny state"

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

No that's not what I'm saying at all.

Have you read my posts?

I've said that Tesla needs to do more to ensure Joe Average drivers understand the system, the limitations and proper use. There's a disconnect here. There's no real education or training or review provided.

I was aware of AP functionality and enabled and tried it. I'm sure there are many Tesla drivers who aren't truly aware of the limitations. Do you disagree?

Once again, perhaps Tesla should require on-line tutorials or education that must be successfully completed prior to AP activation.

Or perhaps Tesla could do more to disable AP on inappropriate roads.

To use your medical analogy - people are educated and aware prior to entering a clinical trial for a new drug. All I'm saying is there should be more effort put forth to ensure proper and safe usage.

Don't make it sound like I'm a Luddite wanting to strip away your right to use this new technology.

There's also the legal aspect here which often defies pure logic. Having a new Tesla driver successfully complete an online tutorial on the proper use and limitations of an ever-evolving AP technology followed by the agreement of the driver that he/she understands these limitations might go a long way to deflate any potential legal action against Tesla.

Does any automotive company have mandatory training for their driving assist packages? These technologies do come into play while driving the car with potentially disastrous results.

For example not understanding that adaptive cruise control systems don't always see stopped vehicles can be disastrous not just for a Tesla driver, but a driver of a different car with the same underlining technology. It's also possible that a person won't understand how to deal with a false positive from an AEB system that temporary won't let them accelerate (due to the false positive).

I only see driver confusion getting worse and worse as more "driver assist" options are added. With driver assist you essentially have two people doing the driving a bad handoff/interaction can be fatal.

The question really comes down to how to educate a driver on how to use these features, and what the common limitations are. Is the manual good enough or should companies have required driver orientation classes?

Personally I'd take a different approach that consisted of a few steps.

1.) Better UI to indicate when AP mode was active/deactivated (most AP related accidents have been because of this)
2.) Better warnings/indication to hold the wheel when it starts to lose confidence
3.) Lots of nagging during a "break in" period of a new driver profile where after awhile all timed nags go away, and the only thing left are it asking the driver to hold the wheel when it starts to lose confidence
4.) Language selection??? The driver in the Montana accident didn't speak english, but his user UI was in english. Why didn't he switch it over? Was it not available?
5.) Disable TACC disengagement when hitting the brakes. The brakes should not turn off the braking part of TACC, but just the acceleration part. The problem is people have been accidentally hitting the brakes without realizing it. They end up either crashing into someone or coming close to it because they expected the TACC to slow the car down. The full disengagement should happen with the hand control.

I wouldn't mind a taking a quiz on the limitations of AP before it allowed me to enable the option.

The only thing I mind is disabling the feature on a GPS lockout. I don't think Tesla has proven they can be very effective with it.

 

[lolachampcar]

My favorite is a 16 year old on a liter class sport bike (followed closely by a 40 year old in a GTP or Champcar ).
If that is not the Darwin test then I do not know what is. Obviously I'm a fan of natural selection.
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/bill at sebring.jpg