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Solar Roof, big price increase

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Now this is truly frightening. If there is this much lack of support a few months in, what will it look like in 10 years? The fact you have so many numerous leaks post install also freaks me out. The many penetrations they make to install all the mounting hardware has made me nervous since I first saw it.

I mean look at this picture https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/08/Tesla-Solar-Roof-Installation-Kyle-Field-CleanTechnica-4.jpg those are quite a lot of fastener penetrations.

I'm starting to think this price hike and broken contract may have been a blessing in disguise.
Yes, and it took two crews 8 weeks to install. My wife counted 25 cars and 3 Tesla trucks in the yard one day (I live on a 5 acre lot, and I’m still picking up trash, nails, screws, plastic parts, and cigarette butts—sadly my neighbor is also picking up trash and he’s 300ft away.). The roof is ~ 23sq, 8.5 pitch, 1 ridge, no hips, no valleys, but it does change elevation in the front. Installing laminated asphalt shingles are a piece of cake. I know I did it myself. The garage, which is an addition, I did in less then two days with a pneumatic coil nail gun. When Tesla arrive they said 4 days. I would say the roof while moderately sized is not complex, so either a Tesla Solar Roof cannot be installed efficiently, or the installers lack know how and experience. What people are paying for is a steep learning curve. I don’t know about you, but I had to pay for my own education—I’m not going to pay for Tesla’s.
 
Take a look at the 1st YouTube video link below. At 4 minutes it shows an installer working above the roof panel. Then at about 4:15 check out the guy installing the panel close to the ridge. Notice the use of the feet to install panels (and the sitting down). This looks to be about a six pitch.

PreviewPreview10:46How Tesla Solar Transforms Our RoofYouTube · This Guy's TeslaNov 17, 2020

In the next link is a Tesla solar roof install performed by Weddle and Sons (40 sq in 4 days). This pitch looks like a 7. The video is time lapsed but do you notice any differences?

3:03Tesla Solar Roof Installation Time Lapse: 40 Squares In 4 ...YouTube · Weddle And Sons RoofingOct 13, 2020
 
Take a look at the 1st YouTube video link below. At 4 minutes it shows an installer working above the roof panel. Then at about 4:15 check out the guy installing the panel close to the ridge. Notice the use of the feet to install panels (and the sitting down). This looks to be about a six pitch.

PreviewPreview10:46How Tesla Solar Transforms Our RoofYouTube · This Guy's TeslaNov 17, 2020

In the next link is a Tesla solar roof install performed by Weddle and Sons (40 sq in 4 days). This pitch looks like a 7. The video is time lapsed but do you notice any differences?

3:03Tesla Solar Roof Installation Time Lapse: 40 Squares In 4 ...YouTube · Weddle And Sons RoofingOct 13, 2020
Not that this isn't a good discussion to have, but it seems like all of these install issues you have had and related concerns deserve their own thread, rather than being buried in the price increase thread.
 
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Not that this isn't a good discussion to have, but it seems like all of these install issues you have had and related concerns deserve their own thread, rather than being buried in the price increase thread.
I only posted it to try to illuminate the complexity issue. 40 sq in 4 days is pretty good. One has to consider what is being installed is both a roof and solar. Pitch does effect complexity. However, working up a steeper pitch is actually easier because one is not as bent over. In any case , working above the installed material to me is slower. I have seen slate roofs installed diagonally so one is working to the side and slightly above.

I was hoping some installers were out there and would comment. My only motive is to ascertain where the complexities are. Using time and material I find it difficult to understand the level of increase. Considering Musk cited complexity, which is related to time and not material, something’s not adding up with Tesla’s excuse for the increase.

My opinion is it’s Tesla’s lack of experience and they’re padding the bill because of increased material and possibly labor cost. But complexity, no.
 
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I only posted it to try to illuminate the complexity issue. 40 sq in 4 days is pretty good. One has to consider what is being installed is both a roof and solar. Pitch does effect complexity. However, working up a steeper pitch is actually easier because one is not as bent over. In any case , working above the installed material to me is slower. I have seen slate roofs installed diagonally so one is working to the side and slightly above.

I was hoping some installers were out there and would comment. My only motive is to ascertain where the complexities are. Using time and material I find it difficult to understand the level of increase. Considering Musk cited complexity, which is related to time and not material, something’s not adding up with Tesla’s excuse for the increase.

My opinion is it’s Tesla’s lack of experience and they’re padding the bill because of increased material and possibly labor cost. But complexity, no.
It’s pretty obvious that complexity is just one of, and maybe the easiest, to claim. But if you looked at the quoted prices a few weeks ago and compared to the simple roof prices from the online tool today, you will see a base increase in the roof cost. If you then toggle the complexity factor, it goes up more. So there is obviously an overall base price increase.
 
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It’s pretty obvious that complexity is just one of, and maybe the easiest, to claim. But if you looked at the quoted prices a few weeks ago and compared to the simple roof prices from the online tool today, you will see a base increase in the roof cost. If you then toggle the complexity factor, it goes up more. So there is obviously an overall base price increase.
And that’s the rub.
 
I only posted it to try to illuminate the complexity issue. 40 sq in 4 days is pretty good. One has to consider what is being installed is both a roof and solar. Pitch does effect complexity. However, working up a steeper pitch is actually easier because one is not as bent over. In any case , working above the installed material to me is slower. I have seen slate roofs installed diagonally so one is working to the side and slightly above.

I was hoping some installers were out there and would comment. My only motive is to ascertain where the complexities are. Using time and material I find it difficult to understand the level of increase. Considering Musk cited complexity, which is related to time and not material, something’s not adding up with Tesla’s excuse for the increase.

My opinion is it’s Tesla’s lack of experience and they’re padding the bill because of increased material and possibly labor cost. But complexity, no.
My advisor stated the below via email so it’s definitely just lack of preparation as well:

“Price increase is also based on price per sq ft which is now been increased to $14 per sq ft. The price of supplies have increased and we had to increase our prices with the supply and demand. This is applied to all orders and both complexity and price per sq ft are set terms.”
 
My advisor stated the below via email so it’s definitely just lack of preparation as well:

“Price increase is also based on price per sq ft which is now been increased to $14 per sq ft. The price of supplies have increased and we had to increase our prices with the supply and demand. This is applied to all orders and both complexity and price per sq ft are set terms.”
It comes down to the contract terms, which clearly states they can change prices due to "unforeseen circumstances at the installation location". The key here is "...installation location". Labor costs, material costs, time, training, supply-demand are not a factor of the "installation location". So, they do not get to weasel out of a contract by selectively using the "unforeseen circumstances" portion of the contract term.

It would have been fair to apply that phrasing "unforeseen circumstances at the installation location" for finding sections of the roof to be rotten, water damage, structural damage etc.

And of course, given the complexity of install yada yada that they have realized, they are within their full rights to increase the cost on new contracts, for the sake of their business. But doing it on signed contracts is taking it to another level of brazenness.
 
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And I would argue the problem is not one of complexity at all, but one of competence. At the risk of sounding condescending one only need to look at Tesla’s description of complexity:

“Roof complexity is determined by the number and severity of roof obstructions such as the pitch, number of joints, chimneys and other features on your roof that add to the difficulty of the installation.”

If we take a look at the individual criteria for Simple, Intermediate, and Complex we find:
  • Number of levels (roof sections built on multiple stories of your house)
  • Mounting plane (Uncrowded, More, and Heavily crowded)
  • Obstructions (pipes, chimneys, and skylights
  • Pitch (low, higher, and steep)
Note: Notice the adjectives. The lack of empirical measure is interesting. Looks more like alchemy than science.

To be truthful, I’m not knocking Tesla for this, estimation is as much art as it is science. However, what is required is experience (and they should prove more empirical factors, like the numbers for pitch?). So I have to think what methods did Tesla use to arrive at their original estimates, and how did they determine each factors cost? By the way, what makes each of the above factors complex? For example, why is pitch complex? Working on an 8 pitch is in some ways easier than a 5. Going back to the video links I posted notice the installer is sitting down above the install line on the lower pitch roof—this takes more time. In the second video, except for the starting course they are working off the ropes below the install line (Why a pick is not used is beyond me, especially on a long sections; (BTW-this is one reason why my rain gutters are damaged)). But I digress.

According to Musk complex roofs take more time and material to install, so let’s break a hypothetical estimation down. Aside from pitch, there are specify materials associated with each of Tesla’s reaming 3 criteria for complexity (Pitch is possibly more time than material). So the material list for a complex job will change. Associate with each piece of material is an installation cost—so as the amount of material increases the cost increases. The Art is when taken together how much extra time is needed. When McMansion started popping up, and similar roof lines became more prevalent, estimators needed to sharpen their pencils to be more competitive. Before that we would just double the cost, and in all seriousness if we had enough work, hoped we didn’t get the job. But then these crazy multiple level roof lines (even on single-level houses) became ubiquitous.

There was really not much magic here. Initially I took each hip and valley and flatten the roof out like a globe onto a 2d map. Then I and add the missing squares back in. The art of being competitive was based on past performance to fine-tune an estimate up or down. Eventually we figured out how to better associate material estimate to time. This is not to say there were not outliers, but there were fewer, but they became easy to spot. Buy the way for developers who built the same or similar house over and over this was eventually just "phoned it". For homeowners we still visited every residence and sometimes factored the owner into the equation.

So what’s my point?

First, I only provided my experience to highlight what I believe is the essential problem, lack of roofing experience (this is correctable). I would have to assume Tesla ‘practiced’ their processes for installing their solar roof, and/or used their V2 installs, to develop their estimation methods. I don’t care if Tesla practiced on a dog house, a doll house, or a yurt—this should have been ironed out sufficiently. I don’t know this for sure but knowing Tesla they might have attempted to reinvent the ‘estimation’ wheel and not used the expertise of existing roofers and estimators. If so that’s on them. This is NOT an "unforeseen circumstances at the installation location"—it’s incompetence on their part.

On the other hand, Tesla might have gotten too far out in front of themselves and is taking a mulligan again NOT an "unforeseen circumstances at the installation location". This smells of SolarCity who was so stovepipe one hand did not know what the other was doing. In my diatribe (The Domino Effect) I tried to describe what I saw was the effect of an organization and process that is compartmentalized to the point of exclusion. If this is the case there are issues regarding organizational culture that may require Tesla to get out of the solar installation business.

Edit: The relationship between workmanship and installation cost is not a trivial one. Tesla suffers from the inability to deliver adequate local after-sales service—SolarCity had similar problems. This is a marriage made in hell.
 
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I don’t know how Tesla will sell any of these things if the quote they gave me is typical. I have a 45x55 house with a simple hip roof and a $250 a month electric bill. They quoted $108,000 for solar roof and 4 batteries. That is 1/3 the current value of my house! It would take over 30 years to break even. Have no idea why 4 batteries. There is something badly wrong with this. I can get a roof and panels for less than $40,000 elsewhere.
 
I don’t know how Tesla will sell any of these things if the quote they gave me is typical. I have a 45x55 house with a simple hip roof and a $250 a month electric bill. They quoted $108,000 for solar roof and 4 batteries. That is 1/3 the current value of my house! It would take over 30 years to break even. Have no idea why 4 batteries. There is something badly wrong with this. I can get a roof and panels for less than $40,000 elsewhere.
yep, but come on, you got to spend the money to be cool.
 
I don’t know how Tesla will sell any of these things if the quote they gave me is typical. I have a 45x55 house with a simple hip roof and a $250 a month electric bill. They quoted $108,000 for solar roof and 4 batteries. That is 1/3 the current value of my house! It would take over 30 years to break even. Have no idea why 4 batteries. There is something badly wrong with this. I can get a roof and panels for less than $40,000 elsewhere.
That one hell of an electric bill! I'm about 2250 Sqft compared to your 2475 Sqft, and I'm averaging less than 700Kwh/mo for electricity (about $75), and my area isn't known for cheap electricity.
 
I don’t know how Tesla will sell any of these things if the quote they gave me is typical. I have a 45x55 house with a simple hip roof and a $250 a month electric bill. They quoted $108,000 for solar roof and 4 batteries. That is 1/3 the current value of my house! It would take over 30 years to break even. Have no idea why 4 batteries. There is something badly wrong with this. I can get a roof and panels for less than $40,000 elsewhere.
The overbid may not be due to complexity but having too much work; it’s what the traffic will bear plus. How old the home is and location are also factors in bidding jobs.
 
And in a further update:
a) They may have promised to add a powerwall on the phone, but they haven't given me anything in writing;
b) The "new" design for my roof drops it from an 11kW system to 8.83kW; but
c) If you click through to the "view system details," it's got the plans for the old 11kW system;
d) ...and the schematic that shows through on the account page for the 8.83kw system has my back yard labeled "front of house."

Meanwhile, I need a new roof. And of course, given the rise in materials prices in the year that Tesla's been waiting around, that's now a much more expensive proposition for me. It's not clear that Tesla makes economic sense anymore even if they were well organized. But I don't even know what I'm getting if I hit "accept" anymore.
 
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And in a further update:
a) They may have promised to add a powerwall on the phone, but they haven't given me anything in writing;
b) The "new" design for my roof drops it from an 11kW system to 8.83kW; but
c) If you click through to the "view system details," it's got the plans for the old 11kW system;
d) ...and the schematic that shows through on the account page for the 8.83kw system has my back yard labeled "front of house."

Meanwhile, I need a new roof. And of course, given the rise in materials prices in the year that Tesla's been waiting around, that's now a much more expensive proposition for me. It's not clear that Tesla makes economic sense anymore even if they were well organized. But I don't even know what I'm getting if I hit "accept" anymore.
I’ve been going through a similarly convoluted process, with conflicting and incorrect information showing on my account, etc. for quite some time.

Ive worked through almost all the details and the design is sufficiently finalized so that I’m comfortable with my tear off date next Monday and install the Monday after. Fingers crossed that everything goes smoothly. There are still a few small details that aren’t fully resolved but I assume the on-site crew and I can discuss once they arrive.

My advice, if you’ve got the time and patience, is to call and reach your advisor or whoever answers, and be real specific with them until you’re satisfied with the result. Some reps are knowledgeable and others aren’t, so it’s a crapshoot unfortunately. I’ve avoided pressing ‘accept’ for things that don’t make sense- I assume that will ultimately delay everything because of future redesigns that will be required.

The hold times are completely ridiculous (sometimes up to two hours- I’ve been able to work while on hold) but I’ve found it to be worthwhile now that I’ve finalized the design and scheduled install (hopefully I’ll still feel that way in about two weeks!).
 
And in a further update:
a) They may have promised to add a powerwall on the phone, but they haven't given me anything in writing;
b) The "new" design for my roof drops it from an 11kW system to 8.83kW; but
c) If you click through to the "view system details," it's got the plans for the old 11kW system;
d) ...and the schematic that shows through on the account page for the 8.83kw system has my back yard labeled "front of house."

Meanwhile, I need a new roof. And of course, given the rise in materials prices in the year that Tesla's been waiting around, that's now a much more expensive proposition for me. It's not clear that Tesla makes economic sense anymore even if they were well organized. But I don't even know what I'm getting if I hit "accept" anymore.
I was hesitant to like your post because it might seem as if I'm agreeing with Tesla's practice of misrepresentation, and their misleading and fraudulent claims and statements, or incorrectly Tesla’s incompetence as schadenfreude on my part.

I signed a “contract” for 10.58307 kW solar roof (my layout shows a 10.6 kW system). However, my solar roof has peaked at 8.4 kW (you can see the data clip). Using the Tesla App I put in a service request for underperformance this is the response I recieved:

“Thank you for reaching out to TESLA. Your system is producing and communicating with no sign of concern. Your system has just recently obtained permission to be commissioned. Your system is producing at 101.511%. Your savings are seen annually.”

So the net result is Tesla will NOT come out and investigate. Tesla is using a ratio based on my current average usage and the weather, and the solar roofs current average performance. I immediately called the service number and between the waiting and the holding I was on the phone for over an hour. At first the representative tried to pawn me off as some idiot, (I am an engineer), and starting telling me about average production and my usage. Stating the data I’m seeing is not continuous and my system could have reached its peak and the app not captured it. I told him I downloaded my data, which is recorded at 5 minute intervals, and it has never gone over 8.4 kW. I told him if it is possible for the histogram to miss recording any data near 10.58 kW one would think it would catch at least one data point above 8.4 kW. He had no answer. I also said if the system is clipping it could be bad panels, a problem with the inverters, bad connections, a problem with the rapid shutdown modules, water penetration … but he still said no visit for you! Mind you some of these are safety issue.

The representative indicated Tesla’s merely relies on their “model”, and no matter if the weather is above average, or how low the ones average usage is, so be it. Your systems is not underperforming. Never mind the price I was quoted for my solar roof was based on the size of the system (aka system production), and not on my current annual savings, which is ratio consisting of meteorological conditions and my energy usage not system production.

When I raised the issue of meteorological conditions I asked the representative if Tesla can control the weather. In Southern NJ we’ve had a very mild winter with above average sunshine. Therefore, I wanted to thank Tesla, on part of the entire region not just solar users, for the pleasant climate. Sorry, but when someone takes me for an idiot it’s hard not to be condescending.

I told the representative my usage has been way down due to the coronavirus I have been using a lot less energy for multiple reasons, which includes brewing beer on a 5 kW electric brewing system, welding and fabrication, and wood working. Additionally, I’ve not yet begun to air condition my home—I would have done so by now because of the pollen but I’ve pumped down the AC condensers and evacuated and the lines in order to raise them. (I should finish this project today). Finally I raised the issue of what about when the temperature of the roof gets to be 120 F and my air-conditioning system’s duty cycle is at its peak—what about my average production then?

The representative eventually capitulated some. He told me Tesla’s is not to ‘permitted’ to send out a technician if the current annualized average production (an estimate) is above 100% of usage. In a way backhandedly acquiesced and apologized, then kind of asked for my sympathy. He offered one final, what can I call it, factoid? Even if he could, get this in “good conscience”, generate a service call—the technician would not be dispatched or may even refuse to show up, WHAT? Just what is Tesla’s business model in regard to customer service? So there you go—a report from inside Tesla’s boiler room.
 
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I was hesitant to like your post because it might seem as if I'm agreeing with Tesla's practice of misrepresentation, and their misleading and fraudulent claims and statements, or incorrectly Tesla’s incompetence as schadenfreude on my part.

I signed a “contract” for 10.58307 kW solar roof (my layout shows a 10.6 kW system). However, my solar roof has peaked at 8.4 kW (you can see the data clip). Using the Tesla App I put in a service request for underperformance this is the response I recieved:

“Thank you for reaching out to TESLA. Your system is producing and communicating with no sign of concern. Your system has just recently obtained permission to be commissioned. Your system is producing at 101.511%. Your savings are seen annually.”

So the net result is Tesla will NOT come out and investigate. Tesla is using a ratio based on my current average usage and the weather, and the solar roofs current average performance. I immediately called the service number and between the waiting and the holding I was on the phone for over an hour. At first the representative tried to pawn me off as some idiot, (I am an engineer), and starting telling me about average production and my usage. Stating the data I’m seeing is not continuous and my system could have reached its peak and the app not captured it. I told him I downloaded my data, which is recorded at 5 minute intervals, and it has never gone over 8.4 kW. I told him if it is possible for the histogram to miss recording any data near 10.58 kW one would think it would catch at least one data point above 8.4 kW. He had no answer. I also said if the system is clipping it could be bad panels, a problem with the inverters, bad connections, a problem with the rapid shutdown modules, water penetration … but he still said no visit for you! Mind you some of these are safety issue.

The representative indicated Tesla’s merely relies on their “model”, and no matter if the weather is above average, or how low the ones average usage is, so be it. Your systems is not underperforming. Never mind the price I was quoted for my solar roof was based on the size of the system (aka system production), and not on my current annual savings, which is ratio consisting of meteorological conditions and my energy usage not system production.

When I raised the issue of meteorological conditions I asked the representative if Tesla can control the weather. In Southern NJ we’ve had a very mild winter with above average sunshine. Therefore, I wanted to thank Tesla, on part of the entire region not just solar users, for the pleasant climate. Sorry, but when someone takes me for an idiot it’s hard not to be condescending.

I told the representative my usage has been way down due to the coronavirus I have been using a lot less energy for multiple reasons, which includes brewing beer on a 5 kW electric brewing system, welding and fabrication, and wood working. Additionally, I’ve not yet begun to air condition my home—I would have done so by now because of the pollen but I’ve pumped down the AC condensers and evacuated and the lines in order to raise them. (I should finish this project today). Finally I raised the issue of what about when the temperature of the roof gets to be 120 F and my air-conditioning system’s duty cycle is at its peak—what about my average production then?

The representative eventually capitulated some. He told me Tesla’s is not to ‘permitted’ to send out a technician if the current annualized average production (an estimate) is above 100% of usage. In a way backhandedly acquiesced and apologized, then kind of asked for my sympathy. He offered one final, what can I call it, factoid? Even if he could, get this in “good conscience”, generate a service call—the technician would not be dispatched or may even refuse to show up, WHAT? Just what is Tesla’s business model in regard to customer service? So there you go—a report from inside Tesla’s boiler room.
Everyone knows Tesla customer service is worse than bad. So, who do folks seem surprised? One got what they paid for.

tesla's powerwall customer service has been outstanding.
 
Interesting development, but will give a rep one more chance before cancelling later today. After being told a couple weeks ago I could get a free PW, it never appeared in the proposed new agreement in my account. My agreement (the original, which is the only one executed) never included a PW, so I was unclear how they would offer it given the $6500 credits (for a $9k-$10k PW) I was seeing people post. Turns out they did submit the new proposal with PW 2.0 (specifies in SMART application) through MA Connected Solutions and SMART program, and the documents just appeared this AM. Below is the cost breakdown. As a reminder, my current agreement is $42k, no PW. We have 1:1 net metering here and I have a whole-home generator. To get any meaningful back up, I'd need 2 or more PW's, so just don't think this makes sense. Unless they agree to honor my original agreement, the traditional shingle ($13k) and solar quotes ($34k) would be for 12.6 kW (~100% consumption) using QCell black 340's with SolarEdge inverter. 10-year workmanship/penetration warranty and 25 year everything else. 50 year warranty on roof, which they claim will hold with the solar install.


Capture1.JPG
 
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Everyone knows Tesla customer service is worse than bad. So, who do folks seem surprised? One got what they paid for.

tesla's powerwall customer service has been outstanding.
I beg to differ, I had an issue with Powerwall service but have not brought it up. But I get your point of falling in love with an idea and not carefully considering the company. In any case, I have not paid them, and will not until they meet their obligations to my satisfaction.
 
I beg to differ, I had an issue with Powerwall service but have not brought it up. But I get your point of falling in love with an idea and not carefully considering the company. In any case, I have not paid them, and will not until they meet their obligations to my satisfaction.
Now, I have not needed any work on my PW yet, so I might change my thoughts in the future :(

I just cannot see how one can fall in love with the solar roof when one thinks about all the possible issues with it during the next 30 years. Never mid the cost, I just want my roof to be simple, not leak, and anyone can repair if I have an issue. I will stick with the panels, again, simple, anyone can work on.
 
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