I agree. But to be fair, winfield's intention was probably to just remind folks to stay mindful about the extent to which they talk about specifics. We aren't really anonymous anywhere.
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Solar Roof, big price increase
- Thread starter nicholb
- Start date
jimm01
Member
Yes, not only Tesla but there are other companies installing unique roofing systems who seemed to have figured out how to price and install their product without losing their shirts. Also, the fact Tesla removed the mass marking hook that installing a Tesla Solar Roof was comparable to a traditional asphalt shingle and solar panel roof is telling. In this case comparability is an improper premise used to justify a principle, which is mass-market affordability.
As much as it seems Tesla doesn’t walk around with their head in the clouds, ground, or some other dark place, they know what’s going on. If not its more than total hubris. It’s regressive and predatory behavior. Then there’s Musk, who plays the wise sage, no they knew the market and they had a plan. Now without saying the roof is not comparable they are saying it’s a custom product. However other than removing a false claim, they have not owned up to that either. Tesla didn’t screw up, they took a chance then rolled snake eyes without covering their bet. Now they want to take a mea culpa to cover their naked short.
jimm01
Member
jimm01
Member
To me the act of arbitration is between mediation and giving a deposition. The main element being like mediation the arbitrator is supposed to be impartial and ethical. Some are attorneys, some are not. Be prepared for Tesla to possibly introduce all kinds of BS. Do not attack Tesla, attack the argument, use facts not inference and build your arguments on basic principles. Tesla made false claims now they want to renege on those claims. I can’t speak for you but the ‘comparability’ claim is why I went with a Tesla Solar Roof. I do not like roof attachments of any sort. The reason I went with a solar roof is to 'not' cut down trees. Otherwise I would have gone with geothermal and possibly wind. What’s the sense of going green if you release a lot of trapped carbon? But I digress. Collect your facts and build deductive augments from them. Be polite, although not a judge act like the arbitrator is one. Having and been sued I’ve experienced three scenarios. 1) The judge seem to like me so I just sat polity and just looked professional; 2) The judge seemed to like my lawyer so I just sat polity and just looked professional; The judge seemed antagonistic so I just sat polity and just looked professional. Get the point. Be quiet until it’s your term—try and get them to be argumentative.
Ulmo
Active Member
They raised the price after you signed a contract? That's both false advertising and violation of contract. Highly illegal.
Hi Ulmo - nice to meet you and you must be new here
This happened to many of us in here, and we're in the process of sorting out with the authorities whether you're correct about that latter (illegal) part. There's some real doozies of stories in here if you want to read them all and get discouraged about how some companies (and individuals) view signed agreements.Totally agree. This is not just another solar product. It is different. Making the decision to invest in this product also meant making multiple other contingent decisions in that vein. The argument that "you would have done this anyway for a solar upgrade" isn't valid.
Solid advice on the arbitration, thanks!
jimm01
Member
Also, ask Tesla to produce documentation or and/or results of any the operations research they performed or used in regard to the installation and logistics of installing a Solar Roof and any OR Tesla used to determine how installing a Solar Roof was comparable to installing standard asphalt shingles and solar panels. Both time and material would have to have been considered. Ask Tesla for their assumptions and to produce the documentation of the verification and validation for their mathematical analysis.
jimm01
Member
Also, in a previous post I stated:
"The problem is people read statements like "1000 solar roofs/week by end of this year" and think Tesla solved its scaling problem. Then they decide to purchase a Tesla Solar Roof. The truth being quite the contrary. With the current pricing and the admitted 'complexity' issue it is now obvious a Tesla Solar Roof is a custom product and is not price competitive with a traditional asphalt shingle and solar panel installation. Elon's tweets and Tesla misleading statements amount to fraud."
The point to concentrate on is: "With the current pricing and the admitted 'complexity' issue it is now obvious a Tesla Solar Roof is a custom product and is not price competitive with a traditional asphalt shingle and solar panel installation."
Tesla and Musk misrepresent and made false statements about its solar roof. I would not have even considered a Tesla Solar Roof if it were costume. Think about a custom car, how do you get it repaired? You can't go down to Moe's Muffler Bearings and get your custom header/exhausts replaced during his spring tune-up and free catalytic converter flush.
This not only includes repairing the solar roof, it's any activity that requires roof access.Amazon just gave up on arbitration after attorneys figured out how to mass file arbitration cases with them, triggering mandatory arbitration fee payments by Amazon.
arstechnica.com
Just sayin...
All the best,
BG
https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/1/22463550/amazon-lawsuit-arbitration-terms-of-service-update-alexa/
After 75,000 Echo arbitration demands, Amazon now lets you sue it
IT-savvy law firms have swamped retailer with arbitration cases.
arstechnica.com
Just sayin...
All the best,
BG
Just got email & text message saying I have 48 hrs to accept a new agreement. Otherwise it will be cancelled. I have not file anything including arbitration so should I just let it go ? Site survey is done and permit is in process (taking forever) but my price went up $47k and + 5k (after site survey). I don't think it is worth it with a new contract even though I love to do it with old price
FurryOne
Member
Does anyone really think that there are 1,000 people out there hit by the price increase? Even 500 people? How about 250 people? Chances are that in the end, only a dozen or even two dozen people will try arbitration, and fewer will actually make it into some real court. I'm not saying it's right, but that's how these things play out over time.Amazon just gave up on arbitration after attorneys figured out how to mass file arbitration cases with them, triggering mandatory arbitration fee payments by Amazon.
https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/1/22463550/amazon-lawsuit-arbitration-terms-of-service-update-alexa/
After 75,000 Echo arbitration demands, Amazon now lets you sue it
IT-savvy law firms have swamped retailer with arbitration cases.
Just sayin...
All the best,
BG
Just got email & text message saying I have 48 hrs to accept a new agreement. Otherwise it will be cancelled. I have not file anything including arbitration so should I just let it go ? Site survey is done and permit is in process (taking forever) but my price went up $47k and + 5k (after site survey). I don't think it is worth it with a new contract even though I love to do it with old price
IMO (naturally this isn't legal advice; just random musings on some web forum)...
Let's pretend you have a quote from a few companies for a new roof + solar dated June 2020. But you clearly went with Tesla for your project by entering into a contract also dated June 2020.
And now Tesla is asking you to pay +$52k. And let's pretend new roof + solar bids from those same companies previously quoted are coming in +$30k more than what you saw in June 2020.
In this case, I think you would have some reason to take Tesla to arbitration to seek recourse on the $30k of damage you suffered because you relied on Tesla to perform their initial contract. Because you have clearly documented damage and the only way to be "reset" to your June 2020 position is for Tesla to pony up the difference in outside 3rd party bids between the two time points.
Naturally an arbitrator could still interpret that Tesla is not in breach of their original contract and give you $0. You should balance the pros, cons, and time you'll spend on this.
As a lawyer, this would be a good remedies question on a law school exam.
The reason for that is remedies is a separate course from contracts.
On these facts there is no basis for Tesla to pay for a roof. There is a basis for (1) damages for waiting (an example would be if, in reliance on Tesla performing you did not replace the roof and (a) Tesla knew about this, and (b) the roof leaked and damaged something resulting in cost), (2) damages for doing something in prep of Tesla performing that is not otherwise valuable for whoever you might hire to do the job instead, or (3) get Tesla to perform, or (4) get someone else to perform who charges MORE and then hit up Tesla for the difference.
People are understandably upset but there are no damages for being upset. What is even more annoying is that if you cancel the contract there may be no damages at all.
I'm sort of interested in an arbitrator ordering Tesla to perform. But I just wish it had not happened, both of the posters and also because its basically a stupid PR move for a company that could have afforded to not have the bad PR.
Sure, I'll bite and hazard to guess. Total hit by price increase: I'd bet 1,000 or more. Some of them decided to go ahead with it, some didn't. Many (including me) didn't proceed with attempting arbitration / litigation for various reasons (I couldn't wait months more). As for the final number that will try arbitration / litigation - you might be right at 1-2 dozen.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect an arbitrator to compel Tesla to perform. I think most reasonable assessments of a solar roof is that the roof itself is constructed to be unique for the home. Since the particular solar roof isn't built yet, it is not clearly identifiable what action is being compelled.
This would be a bit different if say a custom cabinet already exists somewhere and the vendor is being asked to perform the installation of the object.
Personally I think your (4) is the best likely outcome for the homeowners where work hadn't yet started on their roof and they still want to get something from Tesla. But I fear many people didn't get competing bids since they viewed the solar roof as novel and didn't even think to get a roof + solar quote.
I figure 4 is unlikely because the Tesla roof is unique.
I am not a construction lawyer, but running a quick search of some cases you can find many where contractors are ordered to perform.
Its unusual in home situations because there is usually always another contractor willing and qualified to do the same work, and since most people want someone with their heart in the job, why force someone to do it?
What makes this unusual is (a) Tesla's product is unique, and (b) Tesla is able to perform, and is not only able, but willing, just for a higher price. Its also unusual because its Tesla corporate who is deciding to perform or not. The crew doing the job are not upset with the homeowner or upset about having to do the job.
I was sort of surprised that Tesla's cancellation language was so limiting, to "unforseen circumstances discovered prior to installation" It could have said "for any reason prior to commencement of construction" or something.
I guess for a company that does not have a PR department this is what can happen. It would have been far better had it not happened.
It turned a bunch of people who were going to be really stoked about their solar roof into a bunch of angry people at the company.
Lol Tesla is immune from bad PR. All Elon has to do is tweet some stupid meme and the tides of good fortune return to Tesla.
What documentation/support do you think a homeowner should prepare if they seeks your (3) solution through arbitration? Like I get it that saying a "Tesla Solar Roof" is not the same as the phrase "GAF roof with Canadian Solar Panels." But do you think the homeowner needs something to clearly define the position that the Tesla roof is very unique and an order to perform is a reasonable remedy?
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