Some people think that 30 minutes is too long to wait for a charge

[DuncanWatson]

and that is something that happens, I will not spend 80K dollars on a car I can not use 100% of the time. Other people think the same way, I don't understand why people on this forum get so defensive about that.

The problem is that you CAN use it 100% of the time (post supercharger rollout). Sure you have some inconvenience sometimes. You have that with a ICE too. They are just different inconviences at different schedules. Sure you should look at your useage patterns and make an intelligent decision. But 30 minutes every 200 miles on a road trip isn't a horrible tradeoff.

OTOH the ICE makes you stop for gas every 200 ish miles all the time without exception. Where an EV user just plugs in a home and/or work every day. The EV is much easier to deal with on a day to day basis.

The maintenance schedule is also nicer on the EV vs the ICE. Overall I think the time tradeoffs are worth it. I think they are likely worth it for most people who see both sides. But maybe you take a ton of road trips and travel 600+ miles a day. I don't.

 

[jerry33]

But maybe you take a ton of road trips and travel 600+ miles a day.

While it's only two or three times a year, 600-700 miles is a comfortable day's drive (When I was younger driving double that was common). However, when I make those trips in the Prius, which goes about 600 miles on a tank during highway driving, all too often I stopped only for pit stops and lunch. It is far safer to stretch each pit stop out to 30-40 minutes. You'll still use up a day driving so it's not like you'll do anything else that day anyway. I would like to reduce the 13 hours of charging it takes to go that distance (no Supercharger, ChaDeMo, or HWPC EVSEs anywhere I need them).

 

[AnOutsider]

I guess since I have two cars and I'm one person, it would almost be impossible to drive my Tesla 100% of the time. I use my ICE for bad weather days, airport parking, etc. So as much as I would like to drive it everyday, I don't.

NOW, what I am thinking about doing is possibly buying another S (maybe even a demo) and sell ICE, and that way I always have an S to drive. Just keep P+ for nice days and other occasions, ans use the second S as the back up car.

If the X were out then that would be the choice, but with it over a year away, maybe second S is the way to go.

Personally, I'd wait til an AWD S was available. You don't get snow, but even in rain it should make for a better daily driver.

OTOH the ICE makes you stop for gas every 200 ish miles all the time without exception. Where an EV user just plugs in a home and/or work every day. The EV is much easier to deal with on a day to day basis.

Whoa, what? We regularly get more than 430 miles on a tank in our A6, and it's our car of choice for longer treks (Q5 is a tad more spacious, but A6 tech makes the drive more comfy). In fact, when I calculate what the two cars cost to operate, I usually calculate what it costs to fully charge 2.5 times to compare against the cost of a tank of gas.

On the plus side, the Model S still comes out ahead, but let's not get silly about needing to refill every 200 miles in all ICEs (even my most inefficient vehicle goes farther than that on a tank).

 

[ckessel]

On the plus side, the Model S still comes out ahead, but let's not get silly about needing to refill every 200 miles in all ICEs (even my most inefficient vehicle goes farther than that on a tank).

My old 79 Trans Am got just about 200-250 miles per 20 gallon tank You could almost see the gas needle dropping as you drove.

 

[jcaspar]

Range in an ICE is just mileage and tank size. A diesel pickup with dual 34 gal tanks has a huge range, well over 450 miles. You don't want too big of a tank for your typical car otherwise you are just wasting fuel carrying it around all over town...

 

[Crispix]

I don't understand anyone who waits in line to buy Costco gas on a weekend. Let's say it's ~5% cheaper and you buy 15 gallons of gas at $4.00/gallon. That means best case scenario you save around $3 on a tank of gas, and more likely less. Ok, that's great. But if you had to drive out of your way to get there and then take 25 minutes to fill up, what's the point?

If was already at Costco and the gas line was short (which means weekdays), fine, I'd buy gas. But Costco on a weekend? No way. I laughed at the gas lines then and I laugh at them now.

If you're shopping at Costco your time is worth more than $7/hr, especially weekend time. You'll end up impulse buying a twin pack of beef jerky and a tub of red vines and overspend anyway. There's no savings in the Costco gas line.

 

[Zapped]

I don't understand anyone who waits in line to buy Costco gas on a weekend. ....
.

Socialize ?
Guess I was never very good at that ... while pumping gas on a -40C (-40 F) winter day. Another reason I don't miss standing outside pumping gas, even for 5 minutes.

 

[Cottonwood]

The problem is that you CAN use it 100% of the time (post supercharger rollout). Sure you have some inconvenience sometimes. You have that with a ICE too. They are just different inconviences at different schedules. Sure you should look at your useage patterns and make an intelligent decision. But 30 minutes every 200 miles on a road trip isn't a horrible tradeoff.

I love my Model S, but there is no way that I an use it 100% of the time, maybe 90-95%, but not 100%. That is why I keep my 2001 Jeep Cherokee. Here are tasks that the Model S won't do, that the Jeep will:

1. Tow a trailer. I like to take my Windrider 17 out on the lake sometimes, or haul the ATV in for service.
2. Get up a rough, 4wd trail. I have a couple of these on my property that I have to get equipment into, or haul firewood out of.
3. Get out my driveway when there is a foot or two of new powder, and its not plowed yet.
4. Pull a friend out of the ditch when they get stuck trying to ger up my driveway when conditions are rough. The Jeep has serious air lockers and a winch bumper for just that.

The Jeep drove out of this picture...The Model S stays in the garage on days like this...

 

[EarlyAdopter]

I had to go to a gas station for the first time in 10 months (!) to get gas for the generator. Ugh, what a terribly dirty, smelly, messy, and noisy experience that was. It was just awful. And I had forgotten how sssllooowww the damn pumps are at reading your credit card, then prompting for your ZIP code, then wait... wait... wait... ok, now finally select the grade of gas.

Just dreadful.

I'm going to convert the generator to natural gas so I never have to go near gasoline ever again!

 

[spleen]

Why are you all so up in arms about topics like this? Some people don't want to stop for 30 minutes every 200 miles on a road trip, and they would be correct in my opinion. That is too long of a wait, even if there were superchargers everywhere I needed them. I get it, you all love the Model S and Tesla and think they can do no wrong. Not everyone is going to agree and there is nothing wrong with that. Using pictures like that to say that an ICE car is worse is crap, unless there was a hurricane or some other natural disaster coming or a gas shortage, which I've never experienced, I've never waited in a line like that for gas. It takes less than 5 minutes to fill my tank up, I don't want to stop and get a coffee or whatever for 30 minutes every time I need to refuel. Some people may not agree that the Model S is the best thing since sliced bread, and guess what, you all will survive that. Get over it.

The pretentiousness and snobbery of this community is outstanding.

Why such hostility? Seriously. Some of us may think that waiting 30 min for a supercharger is no big deal. Others may disagree - that's fine, either don't use them or wait for better tech to come out. Don't quite get where the personal attack came from.

 

[texex91]

You could almost see the gas needle dropping as you drove.

You can still do that on a new Range Rover LOL!

 

[EarlyAdopter]

and that is something that happens, I will not spend 80K dollars on a car I can not use 100% of the time. Other people think the same way, I don't understand why people on this forum get so defensive about that.

If you can't work out that spending 40 minutes every 3-4 hours of driving on a long trip to stop and charge while you take a pit stop is a better use of time than having to take 10 minutes out of your day every week to go get gas, well then there's not much we can do for you.

 

[David_Cary]

I love these comments. Numbers are half baked. 40 minutes every 3-4 hours? Maybe if the SC is at the exact location you need it to be - and there is zero time getting off highway - and you plug in in zero seconds with zero parking time. And you have a perfect 20 minute charge with full power every single second.

Then you compare to a gas station in a crowded city with lines that is presumably out of the way.

I don't drive an ICE much anymore but when I do, the gas station is on the right side on a road I was travelling on anyway. There is no line. And the pump time is under 90 seconds. Figuring 10 minutes is not normal. And the last car I drove regularly was a Civic hybrid with a 12 gallon tank. Got me 500 miles between stops (with a buffer) so I usually filled up close to every 2 weeks.

The other enormous difference is that on a road trip, I've got my toddler and I just want to get to my destination fast. When I buy gas, I can pick the time and maybe I am running early to a meeting so I get it then instead of waiting in a lobby longer for a meeting. Being able to pick when to get a refill is a huge advantage.

Supercharging is a great idea and fantastic. But pretending that it is as convenient as gas is not true for lots of people (ie suburbanites with lots of gas station choices and no lines).

 

[AnOutsider]

I love these comments. Numbers are half baked. 40 minutes every 3-4 hours? Maybe if the SC is at the exact location you need it to be - and there is zero time getting off highway - and you plug in in zero seconds with zero parking time. And you have a perfect 20 minute charge with full power every single second.

Then you compare to a gas station in a crowded city with lines that is presumably out of the way.

I don't drive an ICE much anymore but when I do, the gas station is on the right side on a road I was travelling on anyway. There is no line. And the pump time is under 90 seconds. Figuring 10 minutes is not normal. And the last car I drove regularly was a Civic hybrid with a 12 gallon tank. Got me 500 miles between stops (with a buffer) so I usually filled up close to every 2 weeks.

The other enormous difference is that on a road trip, I've got my toddler and I just want to get to my destination fast. When I buy gas, I can pick the time and maybe I am running early to a meeting so I get it then instead of waiting in a lobby longer for a meeting. Being able to pick when to get a refill is a huge advantage.

Supercharging is a great idea and fantastic. But pretending that it is as convenient as gas is not true for lots of people (ie suburbanites with lots of gas station choices and no lines).

Agreed. It's like folks feel admitting there are some weaknesses to EVs currently is blasphemy or something. Preaching that there's NO problems to people you want to convert can only do a disservice. I find people are happier when they know more upfront vs just the rosy side of things.

 

[brianman]

Agreed. It's like folks feel admitting there are some weaknesses to EVs currently is blasphemy or something. Preaching that there's NO problems to people you want to convert can only do a disservice. I find people are happier when they know more upfront vs just the rosy side of things.

Agreed.

• How far does it go?
• EPA says 265
• Woah...265.
  <looks back at car>
• EPA? How much do you really get?
• I get a bit less. About 220. Lead foot and such.
• Heh.

People respect and react positively to this every time. Nobody has said "only 220"? Not one. Nobody has said anything about the EPA number being trickery or deceptive.

 

[caddieo]

I love these comments. Numbers are half baked. 40 minutes every 3-4 hours? Maybe if the SC is at the exact location you need it to be - and there is zero time getting off highway - and you plug in in zero seconds with zero parking time. And you have a perfect 20 minute charge with full power every single second.

Then you compare to a gas station in a crowded city with lines that is presumably out of the way.



The other enormous difference is that on a road trip, I've got my toddler and I just want to get to my destination fast. When I buy gas, I can pick the time and maybe I am running early to a meeting so I get it then instead of waiting in a lobby longer for a meeting. Being able to pick when to get a refill is a huge advantage.

Supercharging is a great idea and fantastic. But pretending that it is as convenient as gas is not true for lots of people (ie suburbanites with lots of gas station choices and no lines).

I think we are trying to discuss the refueling (EV or gas) of daily routine use and the refueling (EV or gas) on long trips in the same breath. That's an apples and oranges situation. There is no question that (at least for the present) ICE vehicles have the edge on long trips since they can stop just about anywhere at any time for as long as is needed whereas EV's have to plan their routes and refueling under the constraints of charge station locations.
It is an entirely different situation for daily routine driving as long as it ends up back in the garage even if max range is used. In this situation, EV's completely avoid the need to refuel en route and have the hands down advantage over ICE vehicles even in gas-station-saturated suburbs. No contest. You can spend the day in the EV without even thinking about it whereas ICE vehicles have to do it sometime during the day or week.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Given that I spend zero time waiting for my car to recharge and that it always is ready and charged up every day, I don't mind spending some time charging during extended trips. I rarely drive outside the range of my 85 kWh battery, so in the end I will still spend far less time charging during long trips than a typical ICE owner spends refueling on a regular basis.

 

[DuncanWatson]

Daily Driving of an EV is vastly superior to an ICE. There is no comparision. You charge at work or at home with no time lost. Refueling an ICE that is used daily just can't compete with that at all.

Long Trip driving of an EV is tolerable but less convenient than Long Trip driving of an ICE vehicle. In a Tesla almost any reasonable trip is doable but there are trade-offs.

When viewed as a whole on a period of 6 months the EV driver will have spent less time refueling or recharing his vehicle than an ICE driver.

 

[Ardie]

I have decided that if ICE drivers are sooo impatient that they can't tolerate waiting the time it takes to recharge an electric car, then I won't try to convince them to get one.

More charging spots for me.

-- Ardie

 

[AnOutsider]

Agreed.

• How far does it go?
• EPA says 265
• Woah...265.
  <looks back at car>
• EPA? How much do you really get?
• I get a bit less. About 220. Lead foot and such.
• Heh.

People respect and react positively to this every time. Nobody has said "only 220"? Not one. Nobody has said anything about the EPA number being trickery or deceptive.

Yup. I typically tell people I get about 210 on a max charge if I drive reasonably. Less if speeding a lot and more if driven moderately -- just like any car. They get it, and still think even 200 miles is impressive.

I have decided that if ICE drivers are sooo impatient that they can't tolerate waiting the time it takes to recharge an electric car, then I won't try to convince them to get one.

More charging spots for me.

-- Ardie

How does being dismissive of a completely valid complaint (especially for those busy, drive a lot, or in an area with few charges) helpful in any way? Imagine scoffing at someone and calling them impatient if they don't feel waiting 30 minutes to refuel is worthwhile. Imagine when that becomes HOURS -- because remember, superchargers are few and far between, and standard outlets (even j1772s) are considerably slower.

To put it in perspective, I'm driving to. NYC tonight, and I'll be there overnight (so I can charge). I can make it there with some range to spare, but would need to recharge on the way back. If I weren't staying overnight, I'd have to stop somewhere and charge for a few hours before I can head back. In that case, I'd take an ICE. Impatient, or practical?