Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[stopcrazypp]

here's another article that references the WSJ report. https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/angela-chao-cause-of-death-18967658.php

We'll probably never know what happened for certain. Cars are easy to drive most of the time. Control operation only become critical in emergency situations. I favor controls that I can operate using muscle memory. In the end, the market will decide whether Tesla's changes are accepted or not. I, for one, don't accept Tesla's new design and that's why I voiced my opinion.

All the articles reference the WSJ report, which says it was a 2020 Model X (which has a physical stalk). The article never mentions it was touchscreen shifter. The only ones claiming that are other journalists adding their own speculation. I said very early on in the other thread that it must be established what year the car was before any conclusions can be drawn either way.

Physical stalks are not a guarantee that people won't get confused. I read a jalopnik article where plenty of people are confused by the physical stalk (even though total complaints is only 7).

 

[stopcrazypp]

This isn’t true.
The parking brake comes on automatically after taping the park button. Pressing and holding the park button is how you engage the emergency parking brake. This is in the manual and there are several threads going over this.

Nope, he's not talking about the emergency parking brake, he is talking about the official "parking brake" that shows the icon.

There are only two ways to activate it:
Press and hold the button until the icon illuminates, or do it in the touchscreen.

To engage the parking brake, touch Controls > Safety > Parking Brake. Follow the onscreen instructions. You can also engage the parking brake by pressing and holding the button on the end of the drive stalk while in Park.

When you manually apply the parking brake using the touchscreen, or by pressing and holding the button on the end of the drive stalk when in Park, the red parking brake indicator lights up on the touchscreen.

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Understand your vehicle's braking system and stopping features.

www.tesla.com

When you come to a stop, the car automatically goes into the "P" gear, but that is not officially considered the "parking brake" given the icon does not illuminate.

The debate is over whether the automatic "park" gear is any different than the "parking brake" given they use the same calipers on the rear brakes. Some claim the latter applies it harder, some claim although it reapplies the caliper, the amount of force is the same.

 

[WyoDude]

Nope, he's not talking about the emergency parking brake, he is talking about the official "parking brake" that shows the icon.

There are only two ways to activate it:
Press and hold the button until the icon illuminates, or do it in the touchscreen.

Only two manual ways.

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Understand your vehicle's braking system and stopping features.

www.tesla.com

When you come to a stop, the car automatically goes into the "P" gear, but that is not officially considered the "parking brake" given the icon does not illuminate.

Because you don’t need an indicator since it will auto-disengage since you didn’t manually set it.

The debate is over whether the automatic "park" gear is any different than the "parking brake" given they use the same calipers on the rear brakes. Some claim the latter applies it harder, some claim although it reapplies the caliper, the amount of force is the same.

And the debate was concluded. It’s not the official parking brake, it’s the manual ways to set it. Auto parking brake and manual do the same thing.

Manually initiated parking brake (either by screen or long press) brings up the icon so you know you’ve set it, thus the icon. Which also allows you keep it on and shift into Netural. Yet pressing P sets it’s automatically and shifting in R or D will auto-disengage.

If you read the post I attached and read the manual this is all very clear.

 

[Zythryn]

All the articles reference the WSJ report, which says it was a 2020 Model X (which has a physical stalk). The article never mentions it was touchscreen shifter. The only ones claiming that are other journalists adding their own speculation. I said very early on in the other thread that it must be established what year the car was before any conclusions can be drawn either way.

Physical stalks are not a guarantee that people won't get confused. I read a jalopnik article where plenty of people are confused by the physical stalk (even though total complaints is only 7).

So now I am curious if those that held up this article as proof that the stalkless controls are unsafe, will now feel the stalks are unsafe? ;-)

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

You SHOULD be taking your eyes off the road anyway to verify the shift took even with a stalk.
THEN once you're sure you're in gear, take your foot off the brake and look around before putting the car into motion again.

The brake? I can't remember the last time I even lifted off the accelerator when shifting between D and R. The confirmation is solid when you're on the power during a shift. But even with fossil cars I almost never touch the brakes or look down when going from R to D, only from D to R because of the lock and possibility of a mis-shift.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Only two manual ways.

Because you don’t need an indicator since it will auto-disengage since you didn’t manually set it.

And the debate was concluded. It’s not the official parking brake, it’s the manual ways to set it. Auto parking brake and manual do the same thing.

Manually initiated parking brake (either by screen or long press) brings up the icon so you know you’ve set it, thus the icon. Which also allows you keep it on and shift into Netural. Yet pressing P sets it’s automatically and shifting in R or D will auto-disengage.

If you read the post I attached and read the manual this is all very clear.

My point is that it's not the same thing as the emergency parking brake, which you can actuate while the car is still moving in drive in case of hydraulic brake failure. The official "parking brake" instead actuates the caliper a second time after the car is already in "P".

As for the last debate, I don't quite agree with your take. For the side that argues automatic and manual are different, their proof is a voltage spike when official parking brake is used (which does not occur when automatic mode is applied). They also say that there was a case where on a boat ramp, only applying the "parking brake" was the car able to stay put (the automatic didn't).
The thread ended without someone doing a conclusive measurement of the forces being applied in either case yet (even though someone offered to do so), but so far the evidence is stronger for the side that claims the two modes are different.
P mode vs Park mode

 

[WyoDude]

My point is that it's not the same thing as the emergency parking brake, which you can actuate while the car is still moving in drive in case of hydraulic brake failure. The official "parking brake" instead actuates the caliper a second time after the car is already in "P".

As for the last debate, I don't quite agree with your take. For the side that argues automatic and manual are different, their proof is a voltage spike when official parking brake is used (which does not occur when automatic mode is applied).

Which gearcruncher disproved.

They also say that there was a case where on a boat ramp, only applying the "parking brake" was the car able to stay put (the automatic didn't).

Inconclusive

The thread ended without someone doing a conclusive measurement of the forces being applied in either case yet (even though someone offered to do so), but so far the evidence is stronger for the side that claims the two modes are different.
P mode vs Park mode

Evidence is stronger that they are the same IMO. Gearcruncher is the only one who disassembled, ran voltage tests, etc. And as he points out Tesla doesn’t mention anything or give any guidance to do this in situations that would warrant it.

I don’t care, believe what you want. This is way off topic now.

Let’s get back to hearing more people complain about why stalkless is a “death trap” and they’re leaving Tesla for Chevy Bolts.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Yes, back on topic - what about that Emergency Brake that @stopcrazypp mentioned?

Hydraulic brake failures are certainly rare with modern cars, there hasn't even been a single incident posted here on TMC since Tuesday. But still Tesla needs to reasonably meet basic vehicle safety laws. Are they doing this by putting the e-brake on the headliner? Are those buttons illuminated at all times? What about the S/X buttons?

 

[Knightshade]

The brake? I can't remember the last time I even lifted off the accelerator when shifting between D and R. The confirmation is solid when you're on the power during a shift. But even with fossil cars I almost never touch the brakes or look down when going from R to D, only from D to R because of the lock and possibility of a mis-shift.

Coming to a full stop before shifting into, or out of, reverse has been standard practice on automatic transmission cars for generations. Both for safety reasons and to avoid damage/wear on the transmission itself.


For example:

https://fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/vdirsnet/OwnerManual/Home/Content?variantid=8037&languageCode=en&countryCode=USA&Uid=G2134776&ProcUid=G2134777&userMarket=usa&div=f&vFilteringEnabled=False&buildtype=web

Reverse (R)
With the selector in reverse (R), your vehicle moves backward. Always come to a complete stop before shifting into and out of reverse (R).

I recognize mechanically you can change gears while moving (up to 5 mph) in a single-speed EV-- but stalk or no stalk it's safer not to because you can verify the car shifted as commanded.... since as noted even stalk cars sometimes don't end up in the gear you "think" it's in without bothering to look or check.

 

[dusty22]

My point is that it's not the same thing as the emergency parking brake, which you can actuate while the car is still moving in drive in case of hydraulic brake failure. The official "parking brake" instead actuates the caliper a second time after the car is already in "P".

You can apply the emergency brake, while the car is moving, by pushing in and holding the button on the end of the shifter.

 

[stopcrazypp]

You can apply the emergency brake, while the car is moving, by pushing in and holding the button on the end of the shifter.

Yes, that's exactly what I said...The "parking brake" instead needs to be applied while car is in "P".

 

[whitex]

Not to mention the removal of USS and lack of autopark and summon

True, though at least the new S/X had a front bumper camera (or so I recall hearing) - it might make up for lack of USS.

 

[mknmike]

I drove a 2024 Model 3 yesterday in a crowded busy parking lot and basically couldn't deal. Took too long for me to hit the correct signal and couldn't shift gears fast enough when parking. I don't like no stalks, not to mention the visible complexity of the steering wheel is unappealing to me, Overall, the car is a major improvement, but would be better if they didn't take away the stalks (and the middle rear seat heater). I feel the interior seems a bit cheaper, but expect they saved money there, making it an improvement for stockholders. Otherwise, everything else is an improvement IMO. Here's my video review thread: 2024 Highland M3 side-by-side comparison videos

 

[zoomer0056]

I drove a 2024 Model 3 yesterday in a crowded busy parking lot and basically couldn't deal. Took too long for me to hit the correct signal and couldn't shift gears fast enough when parking. I don't like no stalks, not to mention the visible complexity of the steering wheel is unappealing to me, Overall, the car is a major improvement, but would be better if they didn't take away the stalks (and the middle rear seat heater). I feel the interior seems a bit cheaper, but expect they saved money there, making it an improvement for stockholders. Otherwise, everything else is an improvement IMO. Here's my video review thread: 2024 Highland M3 side-by-side comparison videos

Was this drive the first time stalkless?

 

[mknmike]

Was this drive the first time stalkless?

Yes. Of course I kept grabbing for the nonexistent shifter, and sometimes the nonexistent turn signal too. When you’ve been driving vehicles with shifters and turn signals in those locations (or a console shifter) for over 35 years, it’s hard to give up old habits. I wonder how much money they are really saving without the stalks.

 

[zoomer0056]

Yes. Of course I kept grabbing for the nonexistent shifter, and sometimes the nonexistent turn signal too. When you’ve been driving vehicles with shifters and turn signals in those locations (or a console shifter) for over 35 years, it’s hard to give up old habits. I wonder how much money they are really saving without the stalks.

All my past cars have had signal stalks too. I was excited and open to experience all the new tech my 2022 MSLR could offer. I never even set foot in one or test driven one before I bought. I learned to use regen braking, screen shifting and turn signals in the parking lot. I learned the signals about 90% in the parking lot. It took about 10 days to get to 100% with no mistakes. No problem finding them, just remembering which was which. It's been two years now ... wow, what a car.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

I wonder how much money they are really saving without the stalks.

Even in quantities of 1-2 million/year, those stalk assemblies can be surprisingly expensive. Maybe even as much as a dollar per car for the pair of them.

 

[MitchMitch]

You forgot the /s

Anything mechanical is more likely to fail than a touch screen.
I had the smart switch (signal, cruise, windshield wiper/washer, high-beam, hazards) replaced on a 2000 GMC 2500 PU a year back. . . $250.00 ( ouch!)
The switch was "only" $50.00. . . those stealerships will getcha if you give them a chance. . . of course it did make it over 20 years. . . .
Kind Regards

 

[Destiny1701]

Just drove a new model 3 as a demo. Same issue. While reverse parking the car back into its space, it took twice as long to manage. Slow, inefficient use of 2 hands to perform what was often a once handed function.

1. Stalks can be operated intuitively with the same hand as the wheel. While you hold the wheel, your middle or 4th finger can flip the stalk up or down for R or D even while either turned around to view reverse or side checking

Using 2 hands to place into R D or P is absurd. Again with a stalk, it’s literally a one handed operation vs now having to use one hand to switch gears on screen and one hand to hold the wheel. So an optional one handed operation is now managed as two. Inefficient and unnecessary.

2. Signalling with both L and R on one side of the wheel is also ridiculous vs a button on each side. Make one have to look at the wheel to ensure the right button is being pushed. Again vs using another finger to toggle the stalk up or down with the same hand while holding the wheel….its a step backward.

I know many have gotten used to the stalks however this does not mean it’s functionally superior. It’s cool and different but in no way a better and more efficient functionality.

 

[Knightshade]

Just drove a new model 3 as a demo. Same issue. While reverse parking the car back into its space, it took twice as long to manage. Slow, inefficient use of 2 hands to perform what was often a once handed function.

1. Stalks can be operated intuitively with the same hand as the wheel. While you hold the wheel, your middle or 4th finger can flip the stalk up or down for R or D even while either turned around to view reverse or side checking

Using 2 hands to place into R D or P is absurd. Again with a stalk, it’s literally a one handed operation vs now having to use one hand to switch gears on screen and one hand to hold the wheel. So an optional one handed operation is now managed as two. Inefficient and unnecessary.

2. Signalling with both L and R on one side of the wheel is also ridiculous vs a button on each side. Make one have to look at the wheel to ensure the right button is being pushed. Again vs using another finger to toggle the stalk up or down with the same hand while holding the wheel….its a step backward.

I know many have gotten used to the stalks however this does not mean it’s functionally superior. It’s cool and different but in no way a better and more efficient functionality.

I'm unclear why you needed two hands to "place into R D or P"? Should only need one finger- either for the screen shifting, or the physical button shifting?


FWIW I do agree it's kinda dumb they didn't put the L and R turn signals on the L and R side of the wheel.... Looking at a 3 wheel it seems an easy fix-- swap the right turn signal to where the wiper button is, move the left turn signal up, put the wiper below it.

Top button on each side activates the turn signal on that side- bottom button does wiper (left) and horn (right)- problem solved.