Still worth getting a Model 3 if Electricity costs more than Gas?

[Zythryn]

Did you read my post right above yours concerning electricity? You seem to have avoided commenting on those. For those without Gas run into their homes the dangerous electricity occurrences are 100% over gas.

Question: Why take the Electricity risk is the answer to why take the Gas risk because its more deadly/harmful per capita?

Fact: Even though planes fall out of the sky and kill bunches of people every time they crash.....planes are tremendously safer than all other forms of transportation.
But yet...some would want to post the picture of a plane crash to show how "dangerous" they are.

Sorry, was responding primarily to the, low occurrence is not equal to zero occurrence position of yours.
The point about electricity is a good one.
Logically, it might be completely valid.
Do you have any numbers due to fires or accidents as a result of an electrical appliance vs that of a gas one?
We can't look at the rate of accidents of all electrical as there are many electrical accidents that would happen even if gas were used for something in my house.
In other words, comparing the increased risk of having an electric water heater over a natural gas water heater. Not the total electric risk, as faulty wiring to a light bulb, or outlet that causes a fire has no impact on another appliance, unless you are getting rid of electrical connections as a whole?

Should we start a new thread on this? It really does take us far afield, but is a very interesting question if you ask me.

 

[Zythryn]

By the simplest calculation resistive heat is 100% efficient, all the energy you put in comes out as heat!
Using natural gas to generate electricity and then using that electricity to resistively generate heat instead of just burning the natural gas in the home uses at least twice as much natural gas. That was my only point. Now, if you use heat pumps for house, water, and dryer that changes the calculations. I have a heat pump and it's about 3-4 times as efficient as a resistive heater. Keep in mind that for the majority of the country power at night does not come from zero carbon sources.
For maximum safety and the environment we should live in houses with electricity or gas!

Correct. We use no resistive heat, except as a tertiary backup to our water heating.

 

[Daniel in SD]

It might not apply the OP, but like I said earlier, there was a huge push for All Electric Homes in San Diego. I grew up in one.

Electricity was the Future at the time and the San Onofre Nuclear Power Station was our Savior. This did not sit well with Big Oil. The founder of Arco started a group called Friends of the Earth, and spent considerable money to finally shut down San Onofre before it's time.

The last laugh though was on Mr. Anderson (Arco). He donated a building to the LA Museum of Art which was named after him. Then after he croaked (bizarrely, he died in Roswell, New Mexico, or is still alive on an alien planet), they renamed the building. No good deed ever goes unpunished.

I hadn't heard about that angle before. All electric makes more sense if you use nuclear power. My understanding is that San Onofre shut down because they couldn't figure out why their upgraded heat exchanger was leaking radiation. Now they're shutting down the Diablo Canyon plant as well. It may not have been a great idea to build San Onofre to only withstand a 7.0 earthquake and put it right on the beach.
I lived in a condo in San Diego with resistive ceiling heat. Talk about inefficient! Luckily you don't actually need heat or ac in San Diego.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Sorry, was responding primarily to the, low occurrence is not equal to zero occurrence position of yours.
The point about electricity is a good one.
Logically, it might be completely valid.
Do you have any numbers due to fires or accidents as a result of an electrical appliance vs that of a gas one?
We can't look at the rate of accidents of all electrical as there are many electrical accidents that would happen even if gas were used for something in my house.
In other words, comparing the increased risk of having an electric water heater over a natural gas water heater. Not the total electric risk, as faulty wiring to a light bulb, or outlet that causes a fire has no impact on another appliance, unless you are getting rid of electrical connections as a whole?

Should we start a new thread on this? It really does take us far afield, but is a very interesting question if you ask me.

It seems ridiculous that this argument is taking place on a website for a car company. Cars kill 37,000+ people a year in the US! House fires only kill 2560.

 

[Garlan Garner]

It seems ridiculous that this argument is taking place on a website for a car company. Cars kill 37,000+ people a year in the US! House fires only kill 2560.

Cars don't kill people. Drivers do.

Thanks Tesla for your autopilot efforts to date.

There are more cars on the road than fires in a house. That's not surprising.

 

[Garlan Garner]

That's not an either/or question, unless you're planning to live here:

To comply with current US building code you have to have a bunch of electrical outlets in a house - and trying to live without them makes life much less comfortable. You don't have to have the (generally fairly small) extra risks associated with natural gas.

Stop quoting half of my posts.

Try and answer the questions I ask. Just try.

Most people in the US have a choice as to what energy supply they choose to use. Sometimes its more difficult to use one over the other, however it is possible for the majority of us.

Is Electric more expensive than Gas in the US?

In a house (natural gas) - yes
In a car (petroleum) - no.

That's why I installed solar myself. Solar energy is free....and if you install everything yourself....its totally free.

So to stay on topic and answer the OP....Buying a Tesla should be more than a single fold decision.

Teslas save on pollution
Teslas save on the environment
Teslas are currently cheaper to operate than ICE cars
Teslas are cheaper in that they will outlast ICE cars in mileage
Teslas are more fun to drive than ICE cars
Teslas are more efficient than ICE cars.
Teslas are quieter than ICE cars.

There is more than one reason to purchase a Tesla besides the cost of electricity.

Don't copy part of my words. I chose them all...so copy them all.

 

[Saghost]

Stop quoting half of my posts.

Try and answer the questions I ask. Just try.

Most people in the US have a choice as to what energy supply they choose to use. Sometimes its more difficult to use one over the other, however it is possible for the majority of us.

Is Electric more expensive than Gas in the US?

In a house (natural gas) - yes
In a car (petroleum) - no.

That's why I installed solar myself. Solar energy is free....and if you install everything yourself....its totally free.

So to stay on topic and answer the OP....Buying a Tesla should be more than a single fold decision.

Teslas save on pollution
Teslas save on the environment
Teslas are currently cheaper to operate than ICE cars
Teslas are cheaper in that they will outlast ICE cars in mileage
Teslas are more fun to drive than ICE cars
Teslas are more efficient than ICE cars.
Teslas are quieter than ICE cars.

There is more than one reason to purchase a Tesla besides the cost of electricity.

Don't copy part of my words. I chose them all...so copy them all.

??? I was answering your question - the electric risk is already inherent in living in modern society.

You asked one specific question in the post I quoted, in between a couple of lectures about us not paying attention. I felt that the framing of the question was poor, because of the assumptions it appears to make about the living environment, so I wanted to talk about that question specifically.

I narrowed my quote to that question, rather than forcing anyone reading through my post to read the entire post above and try to figure out what I was responding to. I didn't twist your words or take a portion of a thought, so I don't understand why you're mad about it.

I'm not sure why you're bringing cost into this discussion - none of my post you quoted is about cost, and it wasn't a part of post I replied to or the one above that. We were talking about safety, and the fact is that you're adding some new (rare) failure modes and causes of death by adding gas systems, on top of the already extant and accepted risks the electric systems in the house expose you too - which AFAICT aren't significantly expanded by the addition of one more electric appliance.

 

[Garlan Garner]

??? I was answering your question - the electric risk is already inherent in living in modern society.

You asked one specific question in the post I quoted, in between a couple of lectures about us not paying attention. I felt that the framing of the question was poor, because of the assumptions it appears to make about the living environment, so I wanted to talk about that question specifically.

I narrowed my quote to that question, rather than forcing anyone reading through my post to read the entire post above and try to figure out what I was responding to. I didn't twist your words or take a portion of a thought, so I don't understand why you're mad about it.

I'm not sure why you're bringing cost into this discussion - none of my post you quoted is about cost, and it wasn't a part of post I replied to or the one above that. We were talking about safety, and the fact is that you're adding some new (rare) failure modes and causes of death by adding gas systems, on top of the already extant and accepted risks the electric systems in the house expose you too - which AFAICT aren't significantly expanded by the addition of one more electric appliance.

The OP asked about cost. I'm trying to keep the discussion about the OP's original question / discussion otherwise the posts will get moved to a cloud in the sky.

I'm not mad or angry at all.

I just know that bringing up one of the rarest occurrences of gas provided homes does not speak for the safety of gas provided homes vs electric. Just like one plane crash does not speak for the safety of planes concerning transportation. Period.

 

[liuping]

Natural gas is very efficient for heating water (especially tankless water heaters), drying cloths and cooking. We use it for those thing only and our SDG&E gas bill each month averages about $10.

That frees more of our solar production to generate NEM credits that completely cover the house (including A/C in summer and heatpump in winter, and my wife working full time from home), and two Teslas. Our electric bill averages less than $0 (after EV clean air credits) and our solar has already paid for itself.

 

[SageBrush]

I hadn't heard about that angle before. All electric makes more sense if you use nuclear power.

I'd say it makes sense for all energy sources other than fossil fuels.
E.g.,

Wind, PV, offsite Geothermal

 

[SageBrush]

That frees more of our solar production to generate NEM credits that completely cover the house (including A/C in summer and heatpump in winter, and my wife working full time from home), and two Teslas. Our electric bill averages less than $0 (after EV clean air credits) and our solar has already paid for itself.

How do the Powerwalls fit into the scheme ?

 

[Sandiegodoug]

Solar a no brainer in San Diego. We also use gas for cooking,hot water and bill cheap.
Solar system took 4 years to pay back initial investment, and guaranteed for 20 years
That’s a 25% rate of return for 20 years.
That’s at the old rates too. I noticed all my neighbors are putting up panels too.

 

[roblab]

Shameless plug: If you think your electric rates are high, do the math. Every solar panel you put on your roof cuts your electric bill. Every panel makes your car cheaper to drive. Start now, and in a half dozen or so years you can brag how you haven't paid $X amount for your power. Panels pay you. I know, hard to see that. Mine paid off in about 5 years, and I don't pay an electric bill now. I think if I lived in a rental, I'd set up panels.

Disagree!!?? Hey, no problem. I'm just giving an opinion. I love not having to pay electric bills, though with two Teslas, it may go up. Or not, since it's based on miles driven.

I've been adding panels whenever I could, and battery backup a few years ago. I have 66 panels. PG&E pays me.

 

[liuping]

How do the Powerwalls fit into the scheme ?

Solare Energy just started the install Friday, so they are not quite online yet. They should be by Wednesday, if inspections go as planned.

When the Powerwall firmware is updated to support TOU better, they will power the house during the summer peak rate times (4-9pm) and 100% of my solar panel production will go to the grid, to maximize credits and make sure I use 0 kWh during the peak rate period.

Also, I like the ideal of having whole house back up,, but that is hard to put a price tag on value wise.

 

[SageBrush]

When the Powerwall firmware is updated to support TOU better, they will power the house during the summer peak rate times (4-9pm) and 100% of my solar panel production will go to the grid, to maximize credits and make sure I use 0 kWh during the peak rate period.

Understood -- thanks.

How does it work out money wise ?

 

[dgpcolorado]

Electric clothes dryer ? Ughh
A clothes line works great. It took us a while to figure out a system of hanging the clothes on hangars and then putting the hangars on the line and from there straight into the closet, but I don't think it takes any more time than the machine approach followed by folding. Probably less.

Trick: shake out the item before putting on a hangar to reduce wrinkles.

I agree! I've been using clothes lines for 28+ years; I didn't even buy a clothes dryer when I built my current house. Don't know why more people don't use free clothes drying - habit, I suppose.

 

[ℬête Noire]

I agree! I've been using clothes lines for 28+ years; I didn't even buy a clothes dryer when I built my current house. Don't know why more people don't use free clothes drying - habit, I suppose.

Climate can be a huge factor. Generally I'd hang my clothes outside to get wet (even if it wasn't raining). That impacts inside, too, because my A/C is constantly fighting to keep moisture level down. So all that moisture that I don't vent outside represents a bunch of electricity I'd be using with the A/C anyway.

So instead when I bought a washer (and the one before that a long time ago) I got one that's really good at centrifuging out water and then use minimal heating when drying.

 

[liuping]

Understood -- thanks.

How does it work out money wise ?

With the SGIP and federal ITC tax credits, adding the Powerwalls is going to cost about $6k. I doubt they will really pay for themselves for a long time, if ever. If I just wanted to recover costs I probably would have done just one Powerwall to just help cover to peak usage.

Who knows though. I built more solar than the minimum to maximize return (I wanted to produce close to our annually usage, which is way more than needed to break even on you bill). In the end, it worked out very well when we added EVs and rates changed substantially. We are not producing 100% of our annual usages now, but we still don’t pay anything.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I agree! I've been using clothes lines for 28+ years; I didn't even buy a clothes dryer when I built my current house. Don't know why more people don't use free clothes drying - habit, I suppose.

I used a clothes line in college when I lived in Montreal. In the winter, the clothes would freeze. Throughout the year, they would smell nasty since they would absorb city odors. Eventually I got an indoor drying rack. Now that I live in Colorado I could hang them outdoors. Maybe they would smell mountain fresh...

 

[dgpcolorado]

I used a clothes line in college when I lived in Montreal. In the winter, the clothes would freeze. Throughout the year, they would smell nasty since they would absorb city odors. Eventually I got an indoor drying rack. Now that I live in Colorado I could hang them outdoors. Maybe they would smell mountain fresh...

I have my lines indoors in a utility room; helps to have the extra humidity in the house in our dry climate and no worries about weather. In my previous house I had the lines in a basement. I put them above head height so that they are out of the way when not in use.