Still worth getting a Model 3 if Electricity costs more than Gas?

[Ulmo]

Whether a TOU plan works for you or not depends on a lot of factors and since everyone's usage patterns are different.......gotta do the math....

For those of you in central or northern California check out the PG&E Toolkit app, you sign in and it pulls all your usage data from PG&E and can calculate your potential costs in all the different rate schedules. Takes the guesswork out of it.

I saved $800 using that app, and at the time the app only cost $5! Great bargain. I highly recommend it. The key was actually using it and acting on the results.

 

[Ulmo]

I'm not sure if it has already been mentioned but depending on how much hot water you use a solar hot water system could save you a lot of money and with a possibly quick payback period.

Depends on a lot of things. If you live in a cold area, that is not an easy answer. If you live in a hot area, a reliable heat pump water heater with solar PV panels is best. Solar hot water has turned more expensive than PV + heat pump water heaters. Don't get GE since they're pretty unreliable.

 

[Ulmo]

We pay about .12/kWh to refuel at night at home.
And by a strange quirk in the Demand Based TOU tariffs for businesses, if I charge between 10am and 3pm, it's .07/kWh at work. This is because with a solar system, your Peak Demand occurs before 10am or after 3pm in the winter, so the EV charging doesn't raise the Peak Demand.

That is an odd quirk indeed! But, it mirrors solar power availability on the grid, which is appropriate. I've been saying the best is to charge at work with big solar arrays there. It's fairly easy to use Visible Tesla and/or your car's scheduled charging to make that happen.

It will be especially better if Tesla integrates their cars with your net usage tariffs, especially considering it encourages solar pv panel installation at work sites. I am amazed and highly highly critical of Tesla for not doing this back in 2012 when the Model S came out, or before with the Roadster. If they're worried about lawsuits, they should just offer an insurance plan and forget about it and do it right, rather than hiding behind crappy software that car owners can't even program. What Tesla should do is have a division that integrates that stuff, actively making it automatic for you. You plug it in, and the tariffs and estimated charges for that minute and hour are automatically downloaded and calculated, and you tell your car what you want to do when, and it calculates the best cost to do that. We're in the stone age of plugging in today.

 

[etmax]

Here in San Diego, residential, single family home. It looks like the cost of electricity will cost more than my gas car which currently gets 34mpg average citi / highway.

TOU plan for EV vehciles: https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/1-1-18 Schedule EV-TOU & EV-TOU-2 Total Rates Tables.pdf

Here is the tiered plan I have now (We have solar so typically we stay in tier 1 but osmetimes lapse into tier 2 when running the AC in the summer (we get triple digits).
https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/1-1-18 Schedule DR Total Rates Table.pdf
We have a small 1400sqft house, but we do not have natural gas, so electric water heater etc.

Best calculator I found is this one which does not have the 3, so I used the S instead... Hopefully you guys have a better calculator that will account for the model 3.
Electric Car Calculator

if I switch to SDG&E TOU plan for electric vehicles owners in the summer the average cost of electricity will be $.38 per kWh. Comes out to
$2,273.91 for the model S with my commute and $2,117.65 for my current ford focus that gets 34 mpg with gas at $3.20 a gallon.

I almost think a hybrid might be a better idea in terms of costs but I don't really want a hybrid I don't think I want either full gas / diesel or all electric. I really wanted a plugin so I can use the carpool lane at work. But you can get the sticker if you get a volt, but then I have a battery and gas engine maintenance... I guess now I know why I see so many Pri-i's (plural for pruis?)...

Power costs, drop closer to $.23.5 in the winter so maybe I should average that in? cost would be $.29 then bring the numbers to $1,712.81 for the model 3 which means it would still be slightly cheaper than gas.

Also what are the real tesla maintenance costs? I heard they are quite high for an electric vehicle. The bolt is essentially no maintenance until 100k miles then a coolant flush. Telsa model 3 is like $500 per year?

Not trying to pinch pennies here, but part of the idea of paying more for an electric vehicle is that your supposed to save on fueling it to compensate for your higher monthly payment which does not sound like that will be the case for most owners in San Diego, unless they are not charging at a single family home.

A proper schedule maintenance is going to be more on an ICE vehicle because it's based on km's more so than time. An EV really only needs an annual checkup.

You can also save by going to a competent mechanic outside Tesla as I think their SC charges are a bit higher than should be

 

[claudelaval]

Here in San Diego, residential, single family home. It looks like the cost of electricity will cost more than my gas car which currently gets 34mpg average citi / highway.

TOU plan for EV vehciles: https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/1-1-18 Schedule EV-TOU & EV-TOU-2 Total Rates Tables.pdf

Here is the tiered plan I have now (We have solar so typically we stay in tier 1 but osmetimes lapse into tier 2 when running the AC in the summer (we get triple digits).
https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/1-1-18 Schedule DR Total Rates Table.pdf
We have a small 1400sqft house, but we do not have natural gas, so electric water heater etc.

Best calculator I found is this one which does not have the 3, so I used the S instead... Hopefully you guys have a better calculator that will account for the model 3.
Electric Car Calculator

if I switch to SDG&E TOU plan for electric vehicles owners in the summer the average cost of electricity will be $.38 per kWh. Comes out to
$2,273.91 for the model S with my commute and $2,117.65 for my current ford focus that gets 34 mpg with gas at $3.20 a gallon.

I almost think a hybrid might be a better idea in terms of costs but I don't really want a hybrid I don't think I want either full gas / diesel or all electric. I really wanted a plugin so I can use the carpool lane at work. But you can get the sticker if you get a volt, but then I have a battery and gas engine maintenance... I guess now I know why I see so many Pri-i's (plural for pruis?)...

Power costs, drop closer to $.23.5 in the winter so maybe I should average that in? cost would be $.29 then bring the numbers to $1,712.81 for the model 3 which means it would still be slightly cheaper than gas.

Also what are the real tesla maintenance costs? I heard they are quite high for an electric vehicle. The bolt is essentially no maintenance until 100k miles then a coolant flush. Telsa model 3 is like $500 per year?

Not trying to pinch pennies here, but part of the idea of paying more for an electric vehicle is that your supposed to save on fueling it to compensate for your higher monthly payment which does not sound like that will be the case for most owners in San Diego, unless they are not charging at a single family home.

If you bought a Tesla before january 1st 2017 your OK since cost of electricity is free even if Tesla says since a couple of years that it is mainly for long distance...

 

[claudelaval]

The TOU plan shows .23/kWh charging during the super off peak time (presumably during the night but it doesn’t specify). That’s when the vast majority of your charging will be. That seems crazy expensive for a middle of the night rate, but it’s still less than buying gasoline. Anyway saving money on gas isn’t the only or even the best reason to drive an EV.

Gosh were lucky here in Quebec since it's around .11c any time of day and best of all...in Canadian dollar!

 

[claudelaval]

Yeah, from the rate schedule you posted you should be doing your math at $0.23/kWh. Charge overnight when the rate is at its lowest.

I have a EV-TOU rate coupled with a solar system and its VERY beneficial in my case.....make power during the day when the rates are high generating credit that I then use at night when rates are low to charge my 2 Teslas. But our rate spread is bigger than yours, .45 peak, .12 off peak Sell high, buy low....

The only hiccup is the current lack of scheduled charging on my 3.....Have to plug in before I go to bed. But once that is updated and working on the 3 I will be able to do like I do with the S and just leave it plugged in when at home.

Are you telling us that on the M3 you can't program a specific time for charging?

 

[claudelaval]

Owning an EV is not about the cost of gas! It's about eliminating the use of gas all together so that our kids and their kids will have clean air to breath long after we are dead.

I agree with you 100% mainly because if your not putting at least 60K miles per year you won't save money with the MS or X

 

[claudelaval]

He's not on a TOU plan now. He's considering switching to a TOU plan if he gets an EV and balking at the costs. I suspect if he remained on a tiered plan and drove the hypothetical EV the same amount, he'd be even more hosed in costs.

I'm saying that when looking at TOU plans, looking purely at the cheapest night time rates for charging an EV is foolish and making proclamations like "yay! My charging is only ___ cents. My cost is only ___/mile" is just as foolish. In the process, you've probably hosed yourself in all the other hours and likely increased your average cost of electricity. And, the cost of fueling the vehicle may not be any less than an efficient hybrid in high electricity cost areas.

Side note: I was amazed to discover the '18 Camry Hybrid is now rated at 52 mpg combined. That's very impressive for a gasoline powered car on the larger end of midsize with 208 hp.
Compare Side-by-Side.

Burn less but still burn fuel with all the side effect associated...

 

[claudelaval]

You do understand that EVs in California make air pollution unless you're pure solar off-grid, no-supercharging, right?

Electromotive propulsion is a superior drive technology compared to ICE and hybrid systems. However, if you use grid power, perhaps the biggest factor in your carbon footprint in the number of miles you drive. Living 2 miles from work and driving an Escalade is greener than living 100 miles from work and driving an EV.

The OP is a prime candidate for solar and a TOU.

Shame on you if you take your huge Escalade for only 2 miles to work...

 

[claudelaval]

A proper schedule maintenance is going to be more on an ICE vehicle because it's based on km's more so than time. An EV really only needs an annual checkup.

You can also save by going to a competent mechanic outside Tesla as I think their SC charges are a bit higher than should be

Let's just say that maintenance plan on a Tesla is way too costly for what it is...

 

[shonline]

You do understand that EVs in California make air pollution unless you're pure solar off-grid, no-supercharging, right?

Electromotive propulsion is a superior drive technology compared to ICE and hybrid systems. However, if you use grid power, perhaps the biggest factor in your carbon footprint in the number of miles you drive. Living 2 miles from work and driving an Escalade is greener than living 100 miles from work and driving an EV.

The OP is a prime candidate for solar and a TOU.

Ah yes, the long tailpipe theory.

LONG SINCE DEBUNKED!

 

[Saghost]

Ah yes, the long tailpipe theory.

LONG SINCE DEBUNKED!

Within the confines of the conditions he specified and assuming you're only looking at total carbon emissions, I think he's right.

Certainly anyone who is really concerned about it could find renewable electricity - but that wasn't his point, and he didn't say an ICE puts out less overall, either.

Long commutes mean more energy used in commuting and more tire dust - and a short commute done inefficiently can still be less damaging than a long commute done efficiently.

 

[McRat]

Within the confines of the conditions he specified and assuming you're only looking at total carbon emissions, I think he's right.

Certainly anyone who is really concerned about it could find renewable electricity - but that wasn't his point, and he didn't say an ICE puts out less overall, either.

Long commutes mean more energy used in commuting and more tire dust - and a short commute done inefficiently can still be less damaging than a long commute done efficiently.

I wasn't going to reply, but you outlined the point. Electricity is greener than gas, diesel, CNG, or H2 in our state. But it does generate emissions.
@shonline :
Here's a look at how your grid electricity is produced: How clean is the electricity I use? - Power Profiler | Clean Energy | US EPA

So if you don't drive much, is it still a good idea to drive an EV? Financially, not so much. Environmentally? You don't have a large transportation emissions footprint no matter what you do. The 'green' decision could be to take the price difference between an ICE and EV and use the money for solar.

But... I still say EV drivetrains are the best choice if you can afford it. Refuels overnight or while you work, no warmup, instant acceleration, the best urban driving experience, fun, quiet, etc.

If you focus on emissions to sell EVs, it's going to take much longer for adoption.

 

[insaneoctane]

I'd be interested in a link to your data. Over the last four years, solar additions in CA have been significant, though Texas is the leader in wind power [by far], with about 21GW of capacity. ...

I roughly mentioned it in my post, here's the exact URL.. ..
https://energy.gov/maps/renewable-energy-production-state

 

[jeffb]

Are you telling us that on the M3 you can't program a specific time for charging?

You can now, it was added in the last firmware update.

 

[Sandiegodoug]

I usually charge my 3 at home with my free solar power, but wanted to see how much supercharger cost. I added 90 miles
And screen said 4.00. Didn’t seem too expensive to me for a car that drives like a sports car.

 

[Cheburashka]

A proper schedule maintenance is going to be more on an ICE vehicle because it's based on km's more so than time. An EV really only needs an annual checkup.

You can also save by going to a competent mechanic outside Tesla as I think their SC charges are a bit higher than should be

Most modern cars don't need a lot of service at all. An oil change every 10K miles is no big deal.

I'm not sure where you are coming from but servicing/downtime on Teslas is pretty common. Go check the MS forum, plenty of people there who spend way more time in service that they would in any ICE. Plenty of failed drive units that leave people stranded, for example.

From a purely financial standpoint, I don't think that a Tesla is worth it if you can't save on the gas. ICE cars are proven to last for hundreds of thousands of miles with little degradation in performance. You're buying the first version of a brand new model car AND it's a Tesla, it'd be wrong to expect no problems at all.

 

[shonline]

Most modern cars don't need a lot of service at all. An oil change every 10K miles is no big deal.

I'm not sure where you are coming from but servicing/downtime on Teslas is pretty common. Go check the MS forum, plenty of people there who spend way more time in service that they would in any ICE. Plenty of failed drive units that leave people stranded, for example.

From a purely financial standpoint, I don't think that a Tesla is worth it if you can't save on the gas. ICE cars are proven to last for hundreds of thousands of miles with little degradation in performance. You're buying the first version of a brand new model car AND it's a Tesla, it'd be wrong to expect no problems at all.

I've had an S for 2 years and 50,000 miles. Service and downtime minimal - less than any ICE car we've ever had. In fact las time, they came to my house, no charge.

No service nags in the IC like our Mb or my old Honda (which needed oil changes every 5K miles!!).

I'd be VERY careful with blanket statements and the use of the word "plenty". Most folks posting online are unhappy with something, so your polling data is pretty skewed.

Are you an owner??

 

[Cheburashka]

Right, but the first batch of Model S had a good amount of known issues, so I wouldn't say I'm skewing anything.