Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[Laserbrain]

The same car with a bigger battery will gain more 'real' horsepower so motor power does mean something.

Yes, here you are right. Throw a bigger battery in the car or get the car to suck more energy out of the battery (L-Update) and you get more real motor power. The only way to transform imaginary motor power into real motor power.

Great, we found a common ground, time for me to leave the thread.

 

[dsm363]

Yes, here you are right. Throw a bigger battery in the car or get the car to suck more energy out of the battery (L-Update) and you get more real motor power. The only way to transform imaginary motor power into real motor power.

Great, we found a common ground, time for me to leave the thread.

So you agree motor power does mean something. Great. You disagree that Tesla should have used that term which is fine.

 

[Torben_E]

Hi all

From time to time I skim through the threads here and often I find interesting and valuable information. Other times I observe that much time is spend on trying to beat up one another (like above). Often I am tempted to put forward my personal point of view or to defend my likeminded fellows (from Germany, US, Norway or Denmark) but I realise I will only add to a debate that will eventually lead to nowhere and make everyone feel worse.

My position is that I am truly happy for all the P85D owners (in US and other places) that love their great P85D and felt well informed by Tesla and truly overwhelmed with the performance of the car and feel that all their expectation from the date of purchase to what was delivered was met.

I equally support those that does not feel that the expectation from the date of purchase to what was delivered was meet. There seems to be a gab there.

I am personally engaged in two separate cases against Tesla Motors (yet not legal and hopefully it wont be) in Denmark to have the marketing law testes and the purchasing law testet.

If we loose the case I at least know I have followed it to the end and I would regard myself as stupid for having trusted the sales persons and the webpages of Tesla Motors and all the videos and articles about the P85D. My learning would be that I have to be more careful in the future.

If we win the cases I would not only be happy that the consumer laws in Denmark is working as they were intended to do, I would also either get what I paid for (by make good) or get a compensation.

I will not sign any NDA with Tesla Motors and as soon as I know how either of the two cases will end I will post it on our webpage http://www.teslaforum.dk/p85d/

Let there be no doubt I love my P85D … best car I ever had… I enjoy it every day…

And then I am looking forward to the clarification about the gap between what I thought I bought and what I got delivered.

Torben_E

 

[Andyw2100]

If what you're buying has no corresponding standard within it's industry, then you assume the risk. That's whether you're buying food, drink, cars, etc.

So while indeed there may not be a standard for electric vehicles yet, which would allow for independent SAE witness verification of stated "horsepower" numbers........that's arguably even more reason for caution when the manufacturer states anything having to do with "horsepower".

Your argument boils down to Tesla should not have been trusted. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that argument. Before the P85D horsepower issue, Tesla had never understated horsepower. We had no reason not to trust Tesla. At that point in time they had earned our trust.

I'm not convinced that Tesla withheld the information in any attempt to fool you. I believe they simply didn't understand it's importance for some people...specifically people who were purchasing solely on the HP number and how they (the buyers) thought that would create specific performance dynamic.

The problem is that there is very strong evidence that Tesla --DID-- understand the importance of the information.

In an article dated October 17, 2014 written for "Green Car Reports" David Noland wrote:

"The company is already working on an update to the website to explain this distinction between net power and "motor power."

The only explanation Tesla ever published was the JB Straubel blog post, published in late September 2015, almost a year later. Tesla recognized the need to educate us, they were working towards doing that, and then they stopped.

Here's the article:

Puzzling New Power Numbers For Tesla Model S

 

[jpet]

Question: Did you own a P85+ prior and if so, did you agree with their comparison of it to an M5?

The P85D is my first Tesla and overall I'm very happy with the car, but there is a but...

I did 2 test drives with P85s before ordering. Note that I was not able to test the P85 at higher speeds (above 75 mph) but I had no reason not to trust Tesla or the Sales Advisors. The Tesla Sales Advisors I have met are all very decent people, not the hard sell "used car" type of guys. Many of them come from BMW or other quality brands.

At that time, there were no "complaints" about the performance of the pre-P85D models. I remember that dyno tests of the P85 even resulted in better performance figures than the ones published on the order page. A friend of mine, who owns an M5, also ordered a P85D since getting Lambo performance at this price level was just too good to resist. Now we know it is also too good to be true. :wink:

Fairly quickly after we received our cars, we started talking to each other about the performance at higher speeds. On the highway, the P85D did not have the passing power of an M5. Although the car is a beast off the line, once at speed it is a whole different animal. Not that it is bad, but it doesn't even come close to the expected 700 hp car we thought we were going to get.

We did not complain about this because on the software front there was a lot going on at Tesla. We all remember the torque sleep story and the info on the site that there were going to be additional OTA upgrades to address higher speed performance. We thought that with time, Tesla would deliver like it had always done in the past.

Well, Tesla did not deliver and out of the blue launched a P90D with Ludicrous mode that would be able to accelerate to max speed 20% faster than the P85D. This is exactly what we had been hoping to get from the OTA upgrades! But wait, for existing P85D owners there would be a limited time offer, only available for 6 months, to upgrade to Ludicrous mode for "just" $5000 + labor. What???

I can not help but feel tricked by this whole chain of events and that's why I expect Tesla to make it right by installing the Ludicrous upgrade for free at my first yearly service. There's no chance I will take them to court if they don't. I'm not that kind of guy. I'm sure that if Tesla does nothing for the customers that bought their most expensive vehicle at that time, it will impact their future sales.

 

[P85DEE]

Your argument boils down to Tesla should not have been trusted. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that argument.

Hi Andy.

My argument actually can be "boiled down" to even more basic that that.

When it comes to horsepower numbers......."trust no manufacturer". This much has already been established, and established over decades. And it is why the need arose for the SAE J1349 Certified Horsepower in the first place.

If you don't know that, well then you ought to know that.

If manufacturers could be "trusted" when it comes to stated horsepower numbers, well then there would have been no need for such a program. It would never have come into existence.

In God we trust. The rest, bring data.

I don't care if it's Tesla, or anyone else.

No manufacturer is above putting his horsepower numbers in the most positive light which would allow him to sell cars. Not Tesla, not anyone. And it's the nature of the performance car competitive sales game. A game with rules established long before there was any such thing as Tesla Motors.

Some of us would do well to recognize that.

Go in looking to buy "horsepower", and do so without that SAE Certified Horsepower logo, but instead make your purchasing decision based on what the manufacturer says with regard to "horsepower", and you're on your own.

Been that way since around December of 2005.

Nobody has vouched for it. Not a soul. You either knew or should have known that nobody else vouched for it, and so live with your decision.

The crocodile tears about how they betrayed some of us.......it's on the consumer to do his homework and learn what the terms actually mean, as opposed to "speculating" as to what terms such as "horsepower motor power" mean.

Before the P85D horsepower issue, Tesla had never understated horsepower. We had no reason not to trust Tesla. At that point in time they had earned our trust.

"Trust" is earned on a daily basis. Or arguably on even a more frequent interval than that.

Just because I "trust" you today, that is no indication that I should "trust" you tomorrow.

When it comes to "horsepower", and a manufacturer stating his horsepower numbers which he knows are instrumental in selling his cars, they're all slick as dog snot.

I don't put it past a single solitary one to not show his "horsepower numbers" in a light which is favorable to his selling cars.

Thus if I am buying with "horsepower" in mind.......wait for it.....wait for it......

I want to know that a non interested party, a neutral party, was there to verify the manufacturer's stated horsepower numbers. That is why I insist on SAE J1349 Certified Horsepower if I am purchasing a car based upon horsepower numbers. This is how I purchased my Z06, and how I would purchase any car if horsepower is at the forefront of my purchasing decision.

No way it makes more sense to trust the manufacturer, than it does to trust that Certification. That's what it's there for.

Because horsepower, is after all, horsepower.

 

[thegruf]

Stop Press!

Audi release RS7 E-tron with 691hp

(drivetrain as a whole only can only deliver 460hp though)

hmmm ... wonders if on a like for like specifications basis some members on this forum would take the same stance?
Methinks Audi would be completely and utterly savaged from every single participant and rightly so.

I'm equally sure every single person reading this thread will get my point.

 

[P85DEE]

Stop Press!

Audi release RS7 E-tron with 691hp

(drivetrain as a whole only can only deliver 460hp though)

hmmm ... wonders if on a like for like specifications basis some members on this forum would take the same stance?
Methinks Audi would be completely and utterly savaged from every single participant and rightly so.

I'm equally sure every single person reading this thread will get my point.

C'mon gruf.

You can't fold news of that magnitude of importance into this thread.

That needs a thread of it's own.:biggrin:

 

[Larry Chanin]

I am personally engaged in two separate cases against Tesla Motors (yet not legal and hopefully it wont be) in Denmark to have the marketing law testes and the purchasing law testet.

If we loose the case I at least know I have followed it to the end and I would regard myself as stupid for having trusted the sales persons and the webpages of Tesla Motors and all the videos and articles about the P85D. My learning would be that I have to be more careful in the future.

If we win the cases I would not only be happy that the consumer laws in Denmark is working as they were intended to do, I would also either get what I paid for (by make good) or get a compensation.

I will not sign any NDA with Tesla Motors and as soon as I know how either of the two cases will end I will post it on our webpage http://www.teslaforum.dk/p85d/

Let there be no doubt I love my P85D … best car I ever had… I enjoy it every day…

And then I am looking forward to the clarification about the gap between what I thought I bought and what I got delivered.

Torben_E

What have you asked for as compensation if you can't get what you believed you paid for?

Larry

 

[Jian Yang]

The problem I see here is that no party want to take responsibilities.

The "misled" customers were misled because they did not know how EV works or what did the 691hp motor power (not inmaginary but real, tested and will perform so from 0 to 40ish mph, massive performance difference in low rpm compare to lower rated motor power motors) mean in the first place. They started all these complaints about not getting what they were promised and felt very wronged from the point of not knowing. They now know that tesla didn't promise at all what they thought they were promised. Some, like that German gentleman is still confused, but I believe most of other people in this thread know the EV and motor power quite well now.

On the other hand, I doubt that tesla didn't see this confusion among the customers. Let's say tesla didn't intentionally misled the customers, they (it is impossible that nobody in tesla marketing or management team was aware of this) certainly benefited from this confusion and simply didn't correct the public. People can argue that tesla didn't do anything illegal and they shouldn't be held responsible for educating their customers. Well, whether this is true from a legal point of view in different regions of the world is yet to be determined, tesla as a morally superior, customer friendly and world changing company should certainly do better (I for one admire tesla for what they do and trust tesla, and I do think tesla should keep up to be worthy of customers' trust). And let's be frank, lots of members in their sales team know poorly about EV and often BS about what they do not know.

In real world, things are not just black and white, and in this particular conflict, both parties are responsible.

 

[lolachampcar]

Jian,

The only modification I would make to your second paragraph is that I came away from the P85D launch thinking the PD had 50% more something than my P+. It did have better low end but was effectively the same car above about 40 mph. I can not let Elon off the hook on that one and believe he intended for the PD to have better passing performance and simply could not pull it off without some hardware changes.

I'm pretty certain I know how an EV works and I am also pretty certain Elon thought he was delivering more than he actually ended up delivering. He thought he could ship almost there and bring it up to there with a software update. This time it bit him in the butt because Inconel Springs and Smart Fuses do not go over WiFi.

 

[electrish]

The P85D is my first Tesla and overall I'm very happy with the car, but there is a but...

I did 2 test drives with P85s before ordering. Note that I was not able to test the P85 at higher speeds (above 75 mph) but I had no reason not to trust Tesla or the Sales Advisors. The Tesla Sales Advisors I have met are all very decent people, not the hard sell "used car" type of guys. Many of them come from BMW or other quality brands.

At that time, there were no "complaints" about the performance of the pre-P85D models. I remember that dyno tests of the P85 even resulted in better performance figures than the ones published on the order page. A friend of mine, who owns an M5, also ordered a P85D since getting Lambo performance at this price level was just too good to resist. Now we know it is also too good to be true. :wink:

Fairly quickly after we received our cars, we started talking to each other about the performance at higher speeds. On the highway, the P85D did not have the passing power of an M5. Although the car is a beast off the line, once at speed it is a whole different animal. Not that it is bad, but it doesn't even come close to the expected 700 hp car we thought we were going to get.

We did not complain about this because on the software front there was a lot going on at Tesla. We all remember the torque sleep story and the info on the site that there were going to be additional OTA upgrades to address higher speed performance. We thought that with time, Tesla would deliver like it had always done in the past.

Well, Tesla did not deliver and out of the blue launched a P90D with Ludicrous mode that would be able to accelerate to max speed 20% faster than the P85D. This is exactly what we had been hoping to get from the OTA upgrades! But wait, for existing P85D owners there would be a limited time offer, only available for 6 months, to upgrade to Ludicrous mode for "just" $5000 + labor. What???

I can not help but feel tricked by this whole chain of events and that's why I expect Tesla to make it right by installing the Ludicrous upgrade for free at my first yearly service. There's no chance I will take them to court if they don't. I'm not that kind of guy. I'm sure that if Tesla does nothing for the customers that bought their most expensive vehicle at that time, it will impact their future sales.

Bravo! This is exactly how I feel.

The car is great from 0-40, but does not perform as the advertised "close to 700 hp" car. This number was the selling point over the 85D. To top it off, the 85D received a significant boost as an over the air update, while the P85D did not.
Now Tesla tell us the car actually has more than 200 hp less than advertised, but that they will sell us a Ludicrous upgrade to make up for part of this shortcoming.

This is not professional behavior at all!


As an aside, the other day I was sitting in the lounge of our local Service Center looking at TMC on my laptop. One of the employees looked over my shoulder, commenting "You don't want to look at THAT website!".

 

[tdelta1000]

How important was it for some of you? Did it change your decision to buy or reserve? I think what's important is that Model S and X are making their statements.

 

[jcaspar]

Bravo! This is exactly how I feel.

The car is great from 0-40, but does not perform as the advertised "close to 700 hp" car.

Then how does it best or at least equal the Hellcat which has 707HP??

 

[lolachampcar]

I take this stuff for granted and have not been very good at opening up the possibility that people many not understand just how violently a car north of 600 hp can and will accelerate over 40 mph (with enough grip). I have one car that has very wide sticky tires and yet still will break them loose over sixty mph. Allowing the car a nice straight road with good traction and letting it manage all shifts produces mind numbing acceleration over 40 mph. The Model S has absolutely no chance of comparing.

In direct answer to your question, the P85D does not if the HelloKitty has grip, is in the right gear and rolls on above 40 mph. The races you are seeing that are so impressive involve the P85D or P90DL's ability to launch incredibly well and accelerate away from launch unlike most any other car on the road. There are very few cars that can match or best their sub 1.7 second sixty foot times and this is where the Tesla has all its advantage. If the race was a 1/2 mile, you would surely understand what I am talking about.

I've said this earlier but it is worth repeating. I have not entered into the whole hp this or hp that discussion because it seems the available information is sufficiently squishy that it can be molded to fit either side's argument. What I am reasonably certain of is that Elon pitched the P85D as having 50% more _____ than the previous performance version Model S. The low speed performance was indeed much better. Tesla announced an OTA update to address higher speed performance on or about the time people started realizing the P85D was no faster than a P85 above about 40 mph. The D was just not fully cooked when shipped and the OTA update was going to complete the package. That looks to me like Elon was earnestly pitching something he ended up not being able to pull off. That is just my interpretation.

 

[JST]

Then how does it best or at least equal the Hellcat which has 707HP??

It has better traction, and of course the torque from the electric motors is available earlier than in the Charger.

Once the Hellcat hooks up, there's just no contest at all. Put that Hellcat power plant in a vehicle with AWD, and it could well stomp the P85D off the line, too.

The coming Hellcat Grand Cherokee, for instance...

2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk: 25 Cars Worth Waiting For Car and Driver

 

[stopcrazypp]

Jian,

The only modification I would make to your second paragraph is that I came away from the P85D launch thinking the PD had 50% more something than my P+. It did have better low end but was effectively the same car above about 40 mph. I can not let Elon off the hook on that one and believe he intended for the PD to have better passing performance and simply could not pull it off without some hardware changes.

I'm pretty certain I know how an EV works and I am also pretty certain Elon thought he was delivering more than he actually ended up delivering. He thought he could ship almost there and bring it up to there with a software update. This time it bit him in the butt because Inconel Springs and Smart Fuses do not go over WiFi.

I've seen your theory elsewhere, but my theory is different. While I also believe Elon likely wanted to deliver Ludicrous over wifi, he never intended to deliver 691 hp battery limited power. The fact Ludicrous isn't even close is evidence of this. The whole performance update issue is orthogonal to the "motor power issue".

I also should point out you did get 50% "something", which is 50% more torque (made possible by a front motor providing 50% more motor power).

Also presented by others, the fact that they specified "motor power" and that it was possible to derive from the S60/S60D vs S85/S85D that "motor power" is not battery-limited power (that was how I knew it back then), I don't believe Tesla intended to mislead.

- - - Updated - - -

Then how does it best or at least equal the Hellcat which has 707HP??

I think that was also what "fooled" a lot of people too. When the P85D launched, it ran head to head with the Hellcat (it even embarrassed one pretty badly). That's probably why it took 5 months before there was any serious discussion here about the P85D's horsepower.

 

[lolachampcar]

Yep, those are the hp this or hp that discussions.......
From my vantage point, Elon knew exactly what he was saying and exactly how those words would be perceived by current P85 owners like me. He was also aware of exactly how the car was performing on the day he announced, the day he shipped and the day he sent the MotorTrend car out to the magazine. We can not call this guy a genus in one breath and a complete idiot in the next.

BTW, I think 50% more torque from 40 mph to 100 mph would have been out of this world amazing I know, I know, Elon did not say exactly where that 50% more _____ was or would be available. There is sufficient squish to allow any position on the facts.

 

[sorka]

Then how does it best or at least equal the Hellcat which has 707HP??

From a 70 MPH? Not in a million years.

 

[dsm363]

Agree. Lots of room for vagueness. That's the problem. Tesla left it open to interpretation and didn't correct people right away. People heard what they wanted and now are upset reality and what they understood didn't align.