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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Yes, thanks.
That is his TMC handle
I think email to his corporate email is more appropriate.
Electric700
Active Member
Thank you, but why did it suddenly decrease for the OP after an update? The rated range is calculated in part from the available kWh in the battery, correct?
- Rated Range does NOT factor your driving habits. Never did. It's a myth, unfortunately, that is promoted by Tesla service employees. Touching the Energy App projects your estimated range based on the last 5, 15, or 30 miles of driving, and I believe this is what service is referring to in its confusion.
- A large drop in rated range is almost never due to "algorithm" or "software update" and is almost always a bad battery module or some hardware issue based on what I've seen in the forums over the last four years.
- Don't let service tell you nothing is wrong if you feel something is wrong. Escalate to the service manager, and if unsatisfactory, go to his or her manager and continue up the line.
- Battery problems are costly for Tesla to fix, therefore Service tries to make the problem go away. Don't let it.
I am pretty certain now there was a change in algorithm. I just picked up my new S100D last week in Switzerland after trading in my P85D, and to my shock the range was 508 km (EU) rated (and 632 km ideal). I expected at least 539 km (equals 335 miles), and possibly 540+ km, as reported by others in Europe. I am on 17.24.30.
The service center told me (after me pointing out the missing range and calling again later in the afternoon) to drive the car a couple down to 30-50 km and then charge to 100%, and see if this recalibrated the batteries, if not, they will look at it.
So yesterday, I charged for the first time at a supercharger from 8% / 42 km rated EU/ 52 km ideal EU to 100% / 511 km rated EU / 636 km ideal and it used 91 kWh (90.5kWh according to Tesla Dashboard, so actually a little lower).
Thus, my calculated useable battery capacity is 90.5 kWh / (511-42) * 511 = 98.6 kWh and therefore it seems correct.
The energy usage per km would be about 193 Wh/km rated EU and 155 Wh/km rated EU.
Prior to this experiment, I was pretty certain that my car arrived with about 7% less battery capacity and thus a broken module.
The service center told me (after me pointing out the missing range and calling again later in the afternoon) to drive the car a couple down to 30-50 km and then charge to 100%, and see if this recalibrated the batteries, if not, they will look at it.
So yesterday, I charged for the first time at a supercharger from 8% / 42 km rated EU/ 52 km ideal EU to 100% / 511 km rated EU / 636 km ideal and it used 91 kWh (90.5kWh according to Tesla Dashboard, so actually a little lower).
Thus, my calculated useable battery capacity is 90.5 kWh / (511-42) * 511 = 98.6 kWh and therefore it seems correct.
The energy usage per km would be about 193 Wh/km rated EU and 155 Wh/km rated EU.
Prior to this experiment, I was pretty certain that my car arrived with about 7% less battery capacity and thus a broken module.
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LargeHamCollider
Battery cells != scalable
The 21" wheels could account for maybe 5%.Uploaded the wrong picture for the final charge - here it is with 91 kWh
I don't have 21" wheels, those are Slipstreams
.So far (with one charge
), I don't have any indication that the algorithm actually adjusts to my driving (I got the car with 20km, now it has 505 km on the odometer), but rather that the theoretical consumption used for the calculation has changed and thus a lower number for the range than previously has appear.Maybe this number will change as I drive for a longer time, but to be honest, I doubt it as it would introduce a whole other can of worms (influence of season, driving route etc.). I will keep track of it by comparing ideal and rated km/miles, what my 90% charge in each mode is and the information from recharging at superchargers and report back in a few months if I see changes.
For now, I just think Tesla now has finally arrived at a sufficiently high battery capacity that it is more important to have an accurate indication of how far you will get rather than showing a larger range and always missing it (as it was with my P85D).
Perhaps this change in calculation is also country / region specific, as we drive fast on average here in Europe because of higher highway speed limits.
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
I had a similar experience dealing with Tesla service (by phone, since I am too far away to just drop by a service center) except that my 90% is only down to 160-163 RM, so not as bad as your car. Same song and dance: logs show my battery is ok so it must be due to my charging regimen (usually to 70%) or the fact that I didn't have the latest firmware (I upgraded to the latest). I spent weeks on a road trip going between 95% and 5% with a couple of charges to 99% — as high as it goes on my car — and the RM changed only a mile or two. Called the service guy again and he gave the the exact same song and dance as before. I've given up trying to get them to do anything about it for now since my range is enough for me to manage my long road trips, albeit with long 95% charges and slow driving on some legs.
If I was down as low as you are I'd definitely have to push Tesla to fix it; something is wrong and the idea that it is just calibration from your charging pattern is nonsense.
I would escalate this politely, perhaps CC'ing Jon McNeil on an email, and just state that you know this is not a result of an algorithm change but something with your specific car and insist that it's looked at.
I had a couple problems that the local service center wasn't too familiar with and initially dismissed but after further explanation and pushing, they did indeed look into the problems and found solutions.
The bottom line is that rated miles is not based on driving history. So the only explanation would be a sudden algorithm change which we all know didn't happen because then every car that received that software update would have a sudden (and large) degradation in range and we'd see a bunch of posts like this. Since we're not seeing that, we know that's not the case.
So I would do this: Call up your service center and tell them to go out in their service fleet and check the 90% charge for their S85/ P85 loaners and tell you if they have even ONE with a 90% under 215 miles, let alone a 90% under 200 like you have. We all know they won't have one. They know this is an issue with your car. Why they're not even validating that you have a problem is beyond me. It's either a matter of poorly educated service writers/ techs or just indifference to the problem. Either way it's unacceptable and it's semi-concerning that their trained technicians are dismissive of an obvious problem.
As a side note, to Jon's credit, I mentioned extensive issues I was having with Tesla service on this forum and Jon reached out to my service advisor who pulled a brand new facelift P90DL (This was about a week after they started shipping) inventory car and had it waiting for me a couple hours later, promising not to return my car to me until all of it's issues were fixed. So Tesla cares. There's no doubt about that. The process seems to be broken though.
I had a couple problems that the local service center wasn't too familiar with and initially dismissed but after further explanation and pushing, they did indeed look into the problems and found solutions.
The bottom line is that rated miles is not based on driving history. So the only explanation would be a sudden algorithm change which we all know didn't happen because then every car that received that software update would have a sudden (and large) degradation in range and we'd see a bunch of posts like this. Since we're not seeing that, we know that's not the case.
So I would do this: Call up your service center and tell them to go out in their service fleet and check the 90% charge for their S85/ P85 loaners and tell you if they have even ONE with a 90% under 215 miles, let alone a 90% under 200 like you have. We all know they won't have one. They know this is an issue with your car. Why they're not even validating that you have a problem is beyond me. It's either a matter of poorly educated service writers/ techs or just indifference to the problem. Either way it's unacceptable and it's semi-concerning that their trained technicians are dismissive of an obvious problem.
As a side note, to Jon's credit, I mentioned extensive issues I was having with Tesla service on this forum and Jon reached out to my service advisor who pulled a brand new facelift P90DL (This was about a week after they started shipping) inventory car and had it waiting for me a couple hours later, promising not to return my car to me until all of it's issues were fixed. So Tesla cares. There's no doubt about that. The process seems to be broken though.
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mknox
Well-Known Member
My early 2013 with A-pack and about 85,000 miles gets between 215 and 218 Rated @ 90%. Did not change at the last firmware update (nor has it ever changed at a firmware update). My Rated Range dropped precipitously at about the 8 month of ownership point and has been relatively flat since then.
llavalle
Member
DB 2
Member
How does that compare with getting root access? Can you get shell access without disassembling the dash any more than needed to access the Tesla Diagnostic Connector that TM-Spy uses? (behind the bottom of the touchscreen)
llavalle
Member
They are pretty much the same but one usually comes after the other. You start by getting shell access (hard) then you try to get root (harder). It used to be a lot easier to get those values - you could simply query a webservice running on the ethernet network of the car... needless to say this does not work anymore
tl;dr: Tesla first said it's "normal degradation". I threw an undignified hissy fit, then quickly apologized, but the rep did have them double check and found a mistake in their first check and indeed I have a flaw in the battery pack that they're going to address.
Longer explanation:
I got a text saying the car was ready for pick up. Tesla looked at the battery while I had the car in for it's 62,500 mile maintenance (a little early, I'm at 61,500). They said the battery showed no faults and that I should understand that there will be degradation over time.
I typically make an extra effort to be nice to service folks, at any business, it's hard job, and I'm feeling a bit abashed at the moment because I completely f**cking lost it at the fellow on the phone, who was just the guy that answered when I called to ask what the outcome of the battery investigation was. The service rep handled my tantrum gracefully. I apologized, but said I want to speak to the manager because if this is normal then I have the worst "normal" degradation of any P85 owner I've ever heard of. He said he'd look into it and have someone call me, hopefully that day.
Followup 2:
Chris (the same fellow I threw the tantrum on) called me maybe 45 minutes later. He started poking into it and says that when they pulled the logs, they pulled it on the wrong car. They just pulled the logs on my car and "one of the bricks has a bad SOC" or something close to that. They're going to send the battery to remanufacture once they can source a loaner pack for me. I'll pick up the car tomorrow and drive it until a loaner pack becomes available.
I'm slightly skeptical that they really did pull the wrong log and I wonder if it was checked at all the first time around, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt on that. They just moved the SC a couple weeks ago and the entire staff was in Fremont for training a week or so ago, so things are really crazy at the moment as they catch up.
Longer explanation:
I got a text saying the car was ready for pick up. Tesla looked at the battery while I had the car in for it's 62,500 mile maintenance (a little early, I'm at 61,500). They said the battery showed no faults and that I should understand that there will be degradation over time.
I typically make an extra effort to be nice to service folks, at any business, it's hard job, and I'm feeling a bit abashed at the moment because I completely f**cking lost it at the fellow on the phone, who was just the guy that answered when I called to ask what the outcome of the battery investigation was. The service rep handled my tantrum gracefully. I apologized, but said I want to speak to the manager because if this is normal then I have the worst "normal" degradation of any P85 owner I've ever heard of. He said he'd look into it and have someone call me, hopefully that day.
Followup 2:
Chris (the same fellow I threw the tantrum on) called me maybe 45 minutes later. He started poking into it and says that when they pulled the logs, they pulled it on the wrong car. They just pulled the logs on my car and "one of the bricks has a bad SOC" or something close to that. They're going to send the battery to remanufacture once they can source a loaner pack for me. I'll pick up the car tomorrow and drive it until a loaner pack becomes available.
I'm slightly skeptical that they really did pull the wrong log and I wonder if it was checked at all the first time around, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt on that. They just moved the SC a couple weeks ago and the entire staff was in Fremont for training a week or so ago, so things are really crazy at the moment as they catch up.
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KidDoc
Member
Thanks for sharing. I've been charging to 90% SOC daily per the SC's recommendation. My 90% range is now up to 138RM from 130RM over a month ago. I brought my car to the SC today. I was told that my battery checked out fine, I should continue to charge to 90%, and that's that. The official word is as follows:
"Engineering evaluated this concern and concluded that this is a normal behavior of the range calculation when the battery has been charged to a lower SOC for a prolonged period of time. It is suggested that the customer charge the vehicle to 90% SOC (Daily use). We recognize the inconvenience and negative user experience associated with this incorrect and reduced range estimate, and we are developing more accurate estimation algorithms which will be pushed over the air to the car when available."
So, Tesla is saying it's my fault for charging to a lower SOC. On the plus side, the SC reps were very polite throughout this process, and a Tesla Ownership Experience rep called me to check on me and to tell me that an engineer said my degradation was normal.
@ckessel, congrats on having your battery issue addressed!
Was this in Portland? I know they moved a few weeks ago. The service situation in Portland has been crazy for a while now.
I'm glad they finally found the problem and they are resolving it.
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