Sudden Unexpected Acceleration today

[SDKoala]

Teslas have creep on by default, so this is something you have to disable once the new owner understands implications.. M3 has no ability to turn off creep.

That's definitely not true. Are you on really old firmware? If your car doesn't allow you to turn off Creep, you probably want to get it checked out. Also, Creep was off by default when I took delivery of my car. My delivery specialist specifically pointed out that it comes with Creep disabled and asked me if I wanted to enable it while we were doing the UI walkthrough to give more of the feel of a traditional car.

 

[SDKoala]

Sorry about the accident. Interesting discussion. I thought when I finally get my M3 the first thing I'd do is turn off creep. I'd never thought about an issue of needing to accelerate when parking without creep. All I thought about was how nice it would be at traffic lights. Good to know. Perhaps I'll keep it on. At least for a while.

Is your thought to turn off creep so that when you are stopped that a light you don't have to keep your foot on the brake? Because if that's the case, deep depressing the brake when fully stopped will put the car in hold, even when creep is on, so you don't have to be constantly on the brake while stopped.

I find creep to be very useful and intuitive from decades of driving automatic ICE cars. The biggest difference is that with creep off, you do have to depress the accelerator in order to move, even at a very low rate of speed. That's to go back forward and backward. This is a completely different way of driving when parking and backing out. Whereas in an ICE car, you slightly tap the accelerator to get the car moving, then depress the brake to control your speed, in the Tesla you have to apply gentle but constant pressure on the accelerator to keep moving. I felt that action left too much chance of exactly this issue--sudden unexpected acceleration--that I've had creep on the entire time I've owned the car so far.

 

[Catman20009]

Is your thought to turn off creep so that when you are stopped that a light you don't have to keep your foot on the brake? Because if that's the case, deep depressing the brake when fully stopped will put the car in hold, even when creep is on, so you don't have to be constantly on the brake while stopped.

Ah. Thank you!

 

[jpaz]

FYI....turned on creep and found it not to my liking. As I said before, I used to drive a manual ICE. I found myself "creeping" to day when I expected the car to be still. I shut it off again.

Guess it is just what one is accustomed to.

 

[nvx1977]

There is a concerning aspect to the way TACC is engaged in the M3. When you double press the stalk for Autopilot and single press to cancel it - the TACC is still active and can definitely cause sudden acceleration to resume. I have been caught off guard sometimes with this behavior on freeways. I know you could cancel it by braking, however there should be an option to press one of the wheels to re-engage TACC just like in normal cars and the default behavior of exiting auto pilot should also exit TACC.

I thought stalk up cancels both, and fighting the wheel cancels just autosteer.

 

[Vince3]

Thanks OP for sharing. IMO it is user error that is encouraged by suboptimal design, likely common to all EVs.

I theorize the likelihood of SUA is higher with EVs in tight situations with rapid alternations between acceleration/brake such as parking. In ICE cars, pressing the gas creates vibrations and sounds before the car moves too much but with EVs I assume its silent until instant acceleration.

I think the pedal maneuvering techniques of these parking SUA cases is worth studying with the advent of EVs, i suspect these drivers have a habit of alternating between pedals to slowly position their cars instead of one smooth motion.

Surely we all appreciate good designs that save us from our errors?

 

[Az_Rael]

single press to cancel it - the TACC is still active and can definitely cause sudden acceleration to resume.

I thought stalk up cancels both, and fighting the wheel cancels just autosteer.

Agree with novox77. On my 3 a single press up cancels all autopilot and TACC. If your car is not doing that, something is definitely wrong.

The biggest safety beef I have with the AP on the drive stalk is we also own a Model S. Yesterday I happily “cancelled” AP by pushing UP on the Model S gear shifter. AP made the requisite cancel noise and I thought all was good. Until I got several loud beeps that I was in Neutral and needed to choose a gear. Luckily I didn’t panic and pick R at 70mph, I am sure that would have caused some marital strife (the S is my husbands).

 

[Zythryn]

...

I have posted this history several times on TMC because the sudden acceleration comments keep coming up. Those whose cars were damaged usually insist the car caused the problem. Everyone else tend to say pedal error. Many posts suggest Creep off as being the root cause of many of these accidents, which my experience clearly supports.

...

I recommended that Creep off be removed as an option. Alternatively, my recommendation would be that Creep on be the default, with Creep off becoming available only after the first 500 miles and then only for profiles expressly opting for Creep off after a touchscreen notice mentioning possible sudden unintended acceleration at low speeds.

It would also be a good thing to include “Creep on” as part of the Valet setting, since the almost uniform experience of valets is with ICE automatic transmission cars.

The test I would like to see, to support or weaken this theory, is how many sudden acceleration events happen in Tesla’s with Creep On vs Creep Off. In the case of the OP, he stated his wife had Creep On, so your suggestion would have made no difference in this case.
Alternatively, compare the number of SUA events in Tesla’s vs other cars.

As I recall, Creep On is the default setting when I picked up my Model 3 a couple months ago.

 

[xav-]

On the bright side, the damage doesn't look too bad compared to others where misapplication of the throttle caused a crash.

The car does log the voltage of both potentiometers that measure the throttle pedal position - one of them increases in voltage as the pedal is applied, the other decreases in voltage. It is a redundant anti-symmetrical system so If the logs show both agree on a time-increasing pedal depression the there really is no other plausible explanation than that the throttle was mistakenly pressed when the brake was intended.

If you don't believe Tesla's reading of the log, you can hire Jason (@wk057) to pull your logs (not sure he can do that with the 3 yet).

It really does not take much for a vehicle to be totaled nowadays. My FRS looked pretty much like that vehicle and it was totaled. Glad everyone is ok though.

 

[xav-]

Regardless whether OPs wife is at fault or not, it would be trivial for tesla to handle something like this and not fulfill the user request. Hypersonic sensors and radars must have picked up something wrong here.

 

[EVnut]

FYI....turned on creep and found it not to my liking. As I said before, I used to drive a manual ICE. I found myself "creeping" to day when I expected the car to be still. I shut it off again.

Guess it is just what one is accustomed to.

Yeah. I'm not following this bit about how having no creep will cause folks to slap the go pedal when they want the stop pedal. How have manual-transmission folks survived for so long without creep? Maybe it is because a manual has TWO ways to stop applying "go" (depress clutch, remove foot from go pedal) where an automatic (and EV) only has one (remove foot from go pedal)?

Dunno. I've driven manuals, automatics, EVs with and without creep, and I've hit the wrong pedal now and again over the years. Briefly and with no more consequence than a quick sphincter check. But those cases of pedal confusion don't seem dependent on the car having creep. :shrug:

I'm not a fan of creep, except in a few instances. The other 90% of the time, I find "no creep" to be superior. Same as my past motorcycles, my manual trans cars, my regular bicycles, my e-bike, and my past no-creep EVs.

 

[Az_Rael]

That's not really true. If you're stopped on any sort of incline, hill hold will only keep you stopped for a second or two while you move your foot from the brake to the gas. You do need to keep your foot constantly on the brake when stopped on hills.

That is only for pre-AP cars. My 2013 would only hold in a hill for a second or two. All AP cars have the new system and Hold will hold you indefinitely even on a hill. You are going to love it on your 3.

 

[mal_tsla]

SUA has occurred in many vehicles with ICE torque converter automatics. Those always "have creep on"

The idea that creep on or creep off has any impact on SUA is not supported by data.

Case in point, OP's model3 had creep ON at the time of this incident. Can we stop suggesting it as a solution, please?

 

[dhanson865]

brake pedal resistance is much higher than that of the accelerator. If a person thinks they are braking gently, when in fact their foot is on the accelerator, the result is a very sudden lurch forward.

It's also a positive feedback when they expect negative feedback so they try harder to stop and end up making the car go faster.

 

[MikeBur]

That's definitely not true. Are you on really old firmware? If your car doesn't allow you to turn off Creep, you probably want to get it checked out. Also, Creep was off by default when I took delivery of my car. My delivery specialist specifically pointed out that it comes with Creep disabled and asked me if I wanted to enable it while we were doing the UI walkthrough to give more of the feel of a traditional car.

I stand corrected. It’s right there. Heh. Next you’ll tell me summon is there from the early manual I posted

 

[MikeBur]

This is NOT true. It is a driver profile setting on the M3. I have mine set to creep off in the model 3, and my wife has it set to creep on in her profile. Look at the bottom right on this picture:View attachment 298967

Yep, as said I’m wrong based on firmware I see today. Thanks for taking the time to post an informative response VS those who just hit disagree...

 

[tpatana]

Hypersonic sensors and radars must have picked up something wrong here.

Problem is that at what point the system can override user action? If the car thinks there's obstacle but you know the freight train is coming from the side, would you want to be able to tell the car to ram the wall anyway?

 

[Mark_T]

The idea that creep on or creep off has any impact on SUA is not supported by data.

Case in point, OP's model3 had creep ON at the time of this incident. Can we stop suggesting it as a solution, please?

No, because it is a solution to one type of user error.

Those used to using creep will be feathering the brake during slow manoeuvres and any sudden unexpected need to stop will cause them to push harder with that foot. Change that to feathering the ‘gas’ pedal and that is where the fish comes in, it is real and it does happen based on previous evidence.

The other problem (which seems likely in this case) is just hitting the wrong pedal. Can happen in any car auto or manual, ICE or EV. It is just much worse in an EV due to lack of lag and audio feedback. Also worse in an auto as there is no clutch for the left foot to use to take off the power.

 

[Dogwhistle]

There are enough differences between EVs and ICE Vehicle driving characteristics, that negative transference is an issue if you swap between the two. Especially if someone is primarily and AT ICE driver, and only occasionally drives the EV. I highly recommend you make the transition as easy as possible for the driver who only rarely drives the Tesla:
- Chill mode - ON
- Regen - LOW
- Creep - ON
I’m making a separate “Guest Driver” profile, and ensuring these settings are there for my wife’s profile. KISS.

 

[wycolo]

Use 2 feet on 2 pedals when off road in parking lots, thus this problem is avoided. The chimes tell you that you are doing it correctly. If the driver cannot do this properly then they do not belong in your Tesla, or just need more practice.

I noticed (again) that my 2012 Subaru Forester has a brake pedal that travels quite a bit before the shoes hit the rotors, hence driver can easily differentiate this from the acel pedal. (No, the brake fluid level is correct.) I suspect Subaru purposely designed this.
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