Accelerating when braking?

[jkdman123]

WOW!

Glancing back through this thread I am shocked by the number of rude wife haters, and ludicrous assertions about the impossibility of car failures.

Millions of replacement ECUs are sold every year for cars in which the ECU has failed. Computers fail routinely. Has no one here seen the blue screen of death? Has no one had to reset a cell phone or reboot a laptop???

Having flown aircraft with real autopilots, and having designed and built a plugin hybrid, and having advised industry on numerous safety issues, I have some understanding of the issues that goes a bit beyond the superficiality seen here. Pintos really burst into flames as a result of bad engineering. Ford Explorers really flipped over as a result of bursting Firestone tires; the collusion of the CEOs is famous.

In airliners in the mid eighties, we had huge annunciator panels with loads of yellow and red lights, that announced failures in highly- engineered systems. Airliners are built to a much higher standard than cars as regards safety. If failures were impossible in these far- better-than-Tesla systems, then why were the annunciator lights necessary?

What a rough crowd.

If the genders were changed, would the husband be treated as an incompetent liar? In addition to reporting the event to your insurance company, report it to the NHTSA. That is pretty quick to do online, but slow to do by phone... but they seem like nice folks.

Nissan Leaf forums are not like this. Chevy Volt forums are not like this. What is it about Tesla that brings out the worst in people?

Nobody is saying cars don't fail. However, if you've truly worked in the industry, then you know for a fact that the VAST majority of unintended accelerations are driver error. You would also know that it's highly unlikely that a component failure that could allow unintended acceleration would probably not go unnoticed by the system and would throw an error, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

Nobody here thinks Teslas are perfect (have you even read this forum before??). The data are clearly on the side of driver error until proven otherwise.

 

[SSonnentag]

This is part of the reason I drive using both feet. Left foot is always brake when in close quarters.

 

[455dan]

In my defense, all I said was I personally if in the described situation would think twice before telling her she screwed up. I stand by that.
I also posted up an actual unintended acceleration I personally witnessed more than once with my old bosses ICE vehicle. As others posted it was an automatic equipped vehicle.
Just thought of another type and although not really unintended acceleration very similar outcomes.
I have seen at least 3 times. Fault in automatic GM cars with a lock up converter. Tried to push me and the wife through an intersection. When some GM autos get to hot they will not disengage the Lock up converter which will mimic a manual transmission without a Clutch to push in . So the only way to stop the car is to brake till it kills the engine Or shift the auto trans into neutral.
When it is time to go at a green light shift into drive barking the tires. Took a new radiator and trans temp sensor to Cure that Grand Am.
In another case it was a defective lock up solenoid. In these cases the engine does not rev, but the car does not stop without killing the engine by braking.
It could conceivably mimic unintended acceleration if the auto is in gear and for unknown reason the lock up solenoid gets a lock up signal.

On last thing if tesla uses variable resistors for the accelerator and only uses one, Think (Boeing 737 MAX) non redundancy, what is to keep a defective pot from giving a throttle is pinned signal to the computer. Garbage in garbage out.? Obviously as soon as the brake is touched the accelerator signal is ignored anyway.

 

[Nakk]

WOW!

Glancing back through this thread I am shocked by the number of rude wife haters, and ludicrous assertions about the impossibility of car failures.

Millions of replacement ECUs are sold every year for cars in which the ECU has failed. Computers fail routinely. Has no one here seen the blue screen of death? Has no one had to reset a cell phone or reboot a laptop???

Having flown aircraft with real autopilots, and having designed and built a plugin hybrid, and having advised industry on numerous safety issues, I have some understanding of the issues that goes a bit beyond the superficiality seen here. Pintos really burst into flames as a result of bad engineering. Ford Explorers really flipped over as a result of bursting Firestone tires; the collusion of the CEOs is famous.

In airliners in the mid eighties, we had huge annunciator panels with loads of yellow and red lights, that announced failures in highly- engineered systems. Airliners are built to a much higher standard than cars as regards safety. If failures were impossible in these far- better-than-Tesla systems, then why were the annunciator lights necessary?

What a rough crowd.

If the genders were changed, would the husband be treated as an incompetent liar? In addition to reporting the event to your insurance company, report it to the NHTSA. That is pretty quick to do online, but slow to do by phone... but they seem like nice folks.

Nissan Leaf forums are not like this. Chevy Volt forums are not like this. What is it about Tesla that brings out the worst in people?

Wow!

Since you're a pilot, you should know that a thorough knowledge of systems is necessary to understand all of those annunciator lights and un-annunciated systems failures. As a professional pilot with almost 40 years military and civilian experience I certainly do. Here's a system's primer for you on a Tesla. The brake pedal is mechanically connected to the master cylinder. If you push on the brake pedal, the brakes will be applied. The brakes can easily over power the motors if both are applied simultaneously. Therefore, if the brakes are applied, the car can not accelerate. The car in question has not been reported to have any issue with the brakes, nor have any warnings or notifications been reported concerning the systems in question. It is a known phenomenon that drivers in unintended acceleration cases overwhelming think they applied the brakes when in fact they applied throttle. Therefore, the odds that the driver pressed the accelerator pedal approach unity.

Glancing at your post, you seem prone to jumping to conclusions without data to support said conclusions. Your post makes a lot of assertions, without even attempting to corelate them to unintended acceleration--and yet you still seem to think you've proven some sort of point. You haven't. Your logic isn't even flawed--it's non-existent. The closest you come to any sort of a logical argument is the liberal use of Ad Hominem logical fallacies--which of course is not close at all.

As an aside, you seem to assert that the Tesla ADAS isn't a real autopilot, since you have "flown aircraft with real autopilots." If that is your assertion--and not just a poor choice of words--please explain how a "real autopilot" is better than Tesla ADAS. Does a "real autopilot" avoid other aircraft? Does it avoid hazardous weather displayed on the radar? I'm seriously curious as to your reasoning.

 

[Johnny Vector]

This is part of the reason I drive using both feet. Left foot is always brake when in close quarters.

I hope you’re joking. Driving with both feet is a terrible idea. Activating the wrong side of your body is generally more likely than a positional error in placement of your extremity. Consider wrong-letter typos. How often do you see, say, l/s errors vs. say, h/j errors? Unless you’re a drummer, your brain is almost certainly more likely to make a side-of-body mistake.

 

[tradosaurus]

My wife drove our Y into another car which was parked opposite the space she was intending to use. She insists her foot didn’t slip off the brake and onto the accelerator and was so upset that I believe her. Is this a known problem? I intend to have the car checked by Tesla but would like to know if this has happened to anyone else?

I think you have a bigger problem on your hand. Tesla cannot fix the fact that you are manipulated by a woman's emotion.

 

[10111MYLR]

Nissan Leaf forums are not like this. Chevy Volt forums are not like this. What is it about Tesla that brings out the worst in people?

I must say that the amount of folks defending for Tesla (here and on social media) and how they do is just crazy. It may very well be the user's fault here. And no one really knows what happened at the moment. But what I've seen... anytime someone says something not positive true or not about the car, they will get stoned. I've owned many different brands, mainstream and luxury and quite active on other forums but the reaction by some Tesla folks is something I've rarely seen. May be worse than Benz's fan boys.

 

[jkdman123]

I must say that the amount of folks defending for Tesla (here and on social media) and how they do is just crazy. It may very well be the user's fault here. And no one really knows what happened at the moment. But what I've seen... anytime someone says something not positive true or not about the car, they will get stoned. I've owned many different brands, mainstream and luxury and quite active on other forums but the reaction by some Tesla folks is something I've rarely seen. May be worse than Benz's fan boys.

You are not reading this forum, just like parsec. This forum is FILLED with people complaining about various issues, including me. I have stated many times that the money I paid for FSD would have been better served if I had burned it in front of starving orphans. Make a thread asking what everyone's opinions on autowipers are and see how many fanbois jump in there to defend Tesla. And there are many posts complaining about service centers. There are fanbois for sure, but I think there are way less than gets kicked around.

Nobody is bashing the OP's wife cause she's a woman. If he had come here saying he had done it himself I'd bet a month's pay that the very same posts would have been made raising the very same questions.

As for other forms of social media. . . .go on Reddit and peruse the entire forums dedicated to absolutely bashing Tesla for sport.

One of the issues in the overall scheme of things is that, just like when Apple was disrupting the cell phone industry, ANY little thing that happens to a Tesla (God forbid one having to do with fire) is instantly headline news raising all sorts of safety and viability questions of the product and the company. Yet you hardly ever hear about problems with other cars, of which there are PLENTY. Why is that? Because an article about a Hyundai ICE car being recalled because it has a tendency of catching fire will not get anywhere near the clicks that one about a Tesla catching fire does (and the reporter will ignore the fact that the Tesla caught fire after smashing into a telephone pole at 70 mph). 'Tesla Recall' is in the news constantly, even it if's a silly over the air software update for the windows. So based on this last paragraph that I wrote, MANY people on social media would call me a total fanboi just because I'm pointing out the partiality with which Tesla is scrutinized in the electric car space.

We live in a world where if I don't agree with you 100% then you assume I MUST be taking a position to the extreme opposite of yours (not necessarily talking about you personally).

 

[DrDiesel1]

Yes, of course, in the general sense... cars malfunction. It can be the result of computer hardware or software failure (or, less likely, shorted wiring, in which the brake signal wire shorts with the accelerator signal... or solder shorts in the relevant boards, which often show up as intermittent faults.) Even brands that are considered to be of more consistent quality than Teslas (Toyotas, for example) can have unintended acceleration without any driver input.

As you may know, the Hertz CEO recently retired as a result of his experience with Teslas.

My MY has jerked the steering wheel substantially (circa 20 degrees) to the right while sitting at a stop light with FSD engaged. It also attempted to steer me directly into the path of an overtaking pickup truck travelling 20-30 mph faster than me when that truck was about 5 feet from my rear bumper. Fortunately, I maintain situational awareness and keep my hands snugly on the wheel and my foot ready to brake at all times when FSD is engaged... and of course I would never use it with anyone else in the car without warning them of the possible hazards. In three days of FSD testing, I had to take over control about 6 times to avoid collisions.

Cars with essential safety features released to the public in Beta stage (think the auto wiper system) can be expected to fail in possibly dangerous ways. I am not aware of any other auto manufacturer who releases safety-critical systems at the beta stage. I am also disturbed that Tesla's "Beta" is what I might call Alpha+.

My strong inclination would be to trust your wife.

WOW! What a load! Brakes are 100% hydraulic/mechanical. You really have some off planet ideas!

Nothing wrong with beta. It's how things get debugged. So, maybe you shouldn't use it. It clearly states, "beta" as well as "supervised" YMMV!

 

[DrDiesel1]

WOW!

Glancing back through this thread I am shocked by the number of rude wife haters, and ludicrous assertions about the impossibility of car failures.

Millions of replacement ECUs are sold every year for cars in which the ECU has failed. Computers fail routinely. Has no one here seen the blue screen of death? Has no one had to reset a cell phone or reboot a laptop???

Having flown aircraft with real autopilots, and having designed and built a plugin hybrid, and having advised industry on numerous safety issues, I have some understanding of the issues that goes a bit beyond the superficiality seen here. Pintos really burst into flames as a result of bad engineering. Ford Explorers really flipped over as a result of bursting Firestone tires; the collusion of the CEOs is famous.

In airliners in the mid eighties, we had huge annunciator panels with loads of yellow and red lights, that announced failures in highly- engineered systems. Airliners are built to a much higher standard than cars as regards safety. If failures were impossible in these far- better-than-Tesla systems, then why were the annunciator lights necessary?

What a rough crowd.

If the genders were changed, would the husband be treated as an incompetent liar? In addition to reporting the event to your insurance company, report it to the NHTSA. That is pretty quick to do online, but slow to do by phone... but they seem like nice folks.

Nissan Leaf forums are not like this. Chevy Volt forums are not like this. What is it about Tesla that brings out the worst in people?

Well, I hope windows 11 doesn't crash you couch.
Of course CPU's . MB's and Circuits fail. Have you ever had a computer fail and kill you ?
Your claims of computer failures causing unwanted acceleration is Ludacris at best.
It just doesn't happen!

It isn't just women this happens to. It seem to happen more to women than men, but that has nothing to do with
this conversation. Take a Deep, breath and turn on spell check. I promise. it won't try to kill you.

PS: Throw all your computers and electronics out the window, before they kill you.

 

[DrDiesel1]

In my defense, all I said was I personally if in the described situation would think twice before telling her she screwed up. I stand by that.
I also posted up an actual unintended acceleration I personally witnessed more than once with my old bosses ICE vehicle. As others posted it was an automatic equipped vehicle.
Just thought of another type and although not really unintended acceleration very similar outcomes.
I have seen at least 3 times. Fault in automatic GM cars with a lock up converter. Tried to push me and the wife through an intersection. When some GM autos get to hot they will not disengage the Lock up converter which will mimic a manual transmission without a Clutch to push in . So the only way to stop the car is to brake till it kills the engine Or shift the auto trans into neutral.
When it is time to go at a green light shift into drive barking the tires. Took a new radiator and trans temp sensor to Cure that Grand Am.
In another case it was a defective lock up solenoid. In these cases the engine does not rev, but the car does not stop without killing the engine by braking.
It could conceivably mimic unintended acceleration if the auto is in gear and for unknown reason the lock up solenoid gets a lock up signal.

On last thing if tesla uses variable resistors for the accelerator and only uses one, Think (Boeing 737 MAX) non redundancy, what is to keep a defective pot from giving a throttle is pinned signal to the computer. Garbage in garbage out.? Obviously as soon as the brake is touched the accelerator signal is ignored anyway.

90's GM's did have TCC solenoid issues. If you are driving and one gets stuck to on, it's easy to apply the brakes to stop.
As a lifelong GM tech, I have seen this issue many times. IMO, it's not the same as unwanted acceleration.
EV's don't have TCC solenoids! Have you noticed the anchors on floor mats in todays modern cars, trucks. ?

That's from the Toyota debacle. I had a customers car come in for this complaint on an older car. I found 3 floor mats
shoved up under the brake and accelerator pedals. Just crazy!

 

[455dan]

90's GM's did have TCC solenoid issues. If you are driving and one gets stuck to on, it's easy to apply the brakes to stop.
As a lifelong GM tech, I have seen this issue many times. IMO, it's not the same as unwanted acceleration.
EV's don't have TCC solenoids! Have you noticed the anchors on floor mats in todays modern cars, trucks. ?

That's from the Toyota debacle. I had a customers car come in for this complaint on an older car. I found 3 floor mats
shoved up under the brake and accelerator pedals. Just crazy!

Yep no real arguments, obviously tesla's don't have TCC. The car was a Turbo GrandAm

I even have a manual lock up switch in my 1984 RX7 that I put a punched out 462 Pontiac in with a 200 4R
If I lock up the converter in first gear, engine cold 800 CFM Q jet still on fast idle the 4.10 posi will in fact overpower the rear brakes and skid the front tires but that is not a "factory" problem.
I need to race the YP against the Mazda to 60 when I finish painting it.

My money is firmly on the Mazda, but The Y Performance is no slouch.

The fact as others have pointed out is the Tesla has hydraulic brakes. No way, No how, applying the brake will accelerate the car.
Applying accelerator and brakes at the same time will ignore the accelerator inputs and sound the warning and the brakes will work.

 

[ucmndd]

If the genders were changed, would the husband be treated as an incompetent liar?

Yes.

Applying the mechanical hydraulic brake pedal overrides the signal to the electronic accelerator. Test it for yourself. Very basic safety feature.

Either the human driver got confused in a stressful moment or a basic and fundamental safety feature failed in a “once in a billion” sort of event.

Both are technically possible. Only one is likely. Humans are orders of magnitude more error prone.

 

[jjrandorin]

I didnt see anything in this thread that seemed to be using gender of the person making this claim as a delineator of anything. I am fairly sensitive to such things too.

The only person I see making that a thing is the person who just parachuted into this thread.

 

[DrDiesel1]

Yep no real arguments, obviously tesla's don't have TCC. The car was a Turbo GrandAm

I even have a manual lock up switch in my 1984 RX7 that I put a punched out 462 Pontiac in with a 200 4R
If I lock up the converter in first gear, engine cold 800 CFM Q jet still on fast idle the 4.10 posi will in fact overpower the rear brakes and skid the front tires but that is not a "factory" problem.
I need to race the YP against the Mazda to 60 when I finish painting it.

My money is firmly on the Mazda, but The Y Performance is no slouch.

The fact as others have pointed out is the Tesla has hydraulic brakes. No way, No how, applying the brake will accelerate the car.
Applying accelerator and brakes at the same time will ignore the accelerator inputs and sound the warning and the brakes will work.

Yep! I tested that my first time backing up to a SC. It stopped the car and displayed the warning on the screen. Pretty Sweet!

 

[parsec]

WOW! What a load! Brakes are 100% hydraulic/mechanical. You really have some off planet ideas!

That was almost true back in the 1960's But it is stunningly obvious that any abs system is not 100% mechanical. Read up on brake system development in the Bosh Automotive Handbook. You will be stunned by what has happened since 1960. And now... imagine this: there are cars that disable accelerator pedal effects when the brake pedal is lightly touched. How is that done? Electronically. You will find this hard to believe, but your Tesla "knows" when the brake is being pressed. You will also be stunned to find out that throttle-by-wire is now pervasive in most ICE cars.

 

[parsec]

I didnt see anything in this thread that seemed to be using gender of the person making this claim as a delineator of anything.

Do you pick up anything related to gender here?
"It seem to happen more to women than men, but that has nothing to do with
this conversation. "

 

[parsec]

I must say that the amount of folks defending for Tesla (here and on social media) and how they do is just crazy. It may very well be the user's fault here. And no one really knows what happened at the moment. But what I've seen... anytime someone says something not positive true or not about the car, they will get stoned. I've owned many different brands, mainstream and luxury and quite active on other forums but the reaction by some Tesla folks is something I've rarely seen. May be worse than Benz's fan boys.

Yes, that squares well with my observations. I have only owned a Tesla for a little over a week, and I an already finding that I am not so sure about the car or the "community". And the corporation is shockingly unresponsive. I've had several dangerous fsd events and wiper malfunctions, and the very first response from the app is denials and delays. More than two weeks just to get an appointment. The corporate response was that the AUTO wiper system is in BETA (all caps theirs). No other car manufacturer releases critical safety features in beta.

What a strange, strange ride this has been!

 

[DrDiesel1]

That was almost true back in the 1960's But it is stunningly obvious that any abs system is not 100% mechanical. Read up on brake system development in the Bosh Automotive Handbook. You will be stunned by what has happened since 1960. And now... imagine this: there are cars that disable accelerator pedal effects when the brake pedal is lightly touched. How is that done? Electronically. You will find this hard to believe, but your Tesla "knows" when the brake is being pressed. You will also be stunned to find out that throttle-by-wire is now pervasive in most ICE cars.

Yes, when ABS fails you have standard mechanical/hydraulic friction brakes. Just because the brake pedal has a switch
to cancel the throttle input. It's a safety feature. Not a failure The fly-by-wire TAC system has been around for a long time. If it fails
the throttle will default to off. I've been in the automotive industry all my life. This unintended acceleration claim is not happening.

 

[parsec]

More than two weeks just to get an appointment.

And two days to get any response at all, that response being that the appointment will be canceled 72 hours after the first request, unless I supply an "exact" "time stamp" and "location" for every event... even though I have elected to share data with the corp. They should already have time stamps for each FSD override event, unless they are lying about all the data collection they are supposedly doing to make the system work at some point in the future. I, as a customer, do not drive around with a data recorder wired to the car. If they want to pay me to do so, I'd be happy to oblige.