Sudden Unexpected Acceleration today

[nvx1977]

Thinking back to my manual days... If I'm on flat ground and at a stop, I preferred to have stick in neutral and no pedals engaged, foot over accelerator. If I slowly rolled forward, I'd press the brake. If I rolled backwards, I'd engage clutch, put the stick into 1st gear and gently accelerate forward a little, let the car roll back a little, and repeat till traffic got moving. Obviously I wouldn't go crazy with the back and forth rolling cause it likely annoys whoever is behind me.

But the point here is that in a no creep with a manual, you can't have an SUA unless your stick is in gear OR you release the clutch. In either situation, all you get is super high revving of the engine while the car remains in neutral.

Another unique aspect of manual driving: you learn quickly on your very first day that it's easy to stall out the engine if you don't operate the clutch correctly. Because of that, you develop an instinct to press down on the clutch whenever your brain doesn't know how to react to the situation. Emergency stopping situations, for me anyway, was always a two-pedal depress: brake AND clutch, so you don't stall out when the car stops. Now, if I accidentally pressed accelerator and clutch, the car wouldn't slow, but it wouldn't speed up either.

So I think the presence of the clutch in a manual significantly reduces SUA events, given that the driver isn't still learning how to operate the clutch.

 

[xmetal]

Just curious which car were you driving then?

That was in an E46 BMW M3. Luckily at an autox there was nothing to hit other than a couple cones.

 

[jamnmon66]

We need direct evidence to settle this. AZM3, have you asked Tesla to check the logs?

With all of the technical details provided so far, it seems extremely unlikely that the vehicle "suddenly accelerated without any input from her." Also there has been studies presented and lots anecdotes about depressing the wrong pedal, particularly in parking situations.

It think that your wife is either embarrassed and doesn't want to admit what happened or (what I think is more likely) genuinely believes that this happened as she stated but is simply mistaken. I'm sure this was frightening & embarrassing which makes it an emotionally charged subject. The logical, reasonable parts of our brains are diminished significantly when emotions are high and our memories are notoriously fallible in most situations, particularly times of stress.

 

[NerdUno]

Hard to believe it's been 31 years since Audi drivers reported the same thing. Not sure anyone ever believed that the 700 reported accidents were all caused by drivers stepping on the wrong pedal. While that doesn't have any bearing on the Tesla situation, it's worth noting that Tesla vehicles now do a lot more "driving" under the covers than any Audi ever did. This is yet another reason that the federal government ought to prohibit vehicle manufacturers from encrypting car logs which gives the manufacturer exclusive access to reading and interpretation of the log data. Not saying Tesla is doing anything sinister, but why encrypt the logs unless you're trying to hide something.

Here's the whole history which some may find interesting:

Sudden unintended acceleration - Wikipedia

 

[JeffK]

Without reading the entire thread, I think I have a solution to the majority of these cases....

Tesla has already implemented some code for accidental pedal applications but I wonder if they could implement an optional parking lot guard tied to autopilot hardware.

Imagine if the user decides to enable this option then the car will detect if the vehicle is currently in a parking lot, or even as small an area as a parking spot itself. If so, then it would display a status message on the screen in addition to both dramatically limit the power available in the area and cause the car to be reluctant to cross white parking lines or cement curbs.

It already has parking spot detection, so this would be relatively trivial to implement, one would think. It would help prevent accidents like this but also shouldn't interfere when acceleration is truly desired.

Thoughts?

 

[jamnmon66]

Without reading the entire thread, I think I have a solution to the majority of these cases....

Tesla has already implemented some code for accidental pedal applications but I wonder if they could implement an optional parking lot guard tied to autopilot hardware.

Imagine if the user decides to enable this option then the car will detect if the vehicle is currently in a parking lot, or even as small an area as a parking spot itself. If so, then it would display a status message on the screen in addition to both dramatically limit the power available in the area and cause the car to be reluctant to cross white parking lines or cement curbs.

It already has parking spot detection, so this would be relatively trivial to implement, one would think. It would help prevent accidents like this but also shouldn't interfere when acceleration is truly desired.

Thoughts?

Seems like a good idea I think you should tweet it to Elon.

 

[AZM3]

This has been an interesting thread and certainly informative for me so thanks to all.
To OP: had you collected facts first (like log information) and then posted, a lot of rancor could have been avoided.

SageBrush - I understand. Unfortunately, I am not equipped yet to be able to collect logs. All I can do and hope is for Tesla to shed some light on what might have happened based on what the car is able to transmit to the mother ship. I will have to either trust my insurance company to pull EDR logs or the Tesla approved body shop if they have such capability.

All the information provided by fellow TMC members is invaluable. As you - I have learned quite a bit by posting the thread. Yes, there will be thrash and rancor but I rather take the heat for being ill-informed than wait until its too late for my family or someone. If the discussion spurred folks to think about changing their behavior on how they drive - I consider it value-add.

 

[Joe F]

SageBrush - I understand. Unfortunately, I am not equipped yet to be able to collect logs. All I can do and hope is for Tesla to shed some light on what might have happened based on what the car is able to transmit to the mother ship.

It’s not going to happen on its own, so hope is not an option.

Call Tesla, tell them what happened, give them a time stamp and ask for the logs to be pulled and analyzed and report back.

 

[AZM3]

We need direct evidence to settle this. AZM3, have you asked Tesla to check the logs?

With all of the technical details provided so far, it seems extremely unlikely that the vehicle "suddenly accelerated without any input from her." Also there has been studies presented and lots anecdotes about depressing the wrong pedal, particularly in parking situations.

It think that your wife is either embarrassed and doesn't want to admit what happened or (what I think is more likely) genuinely believes that this happened as she stated but is simply mistaken. I'm sure this was frightening & embarrassing which makes it an emotionally charged subject. The logical, reasonable parts of our brains are diminished significantly when emotions are high and our memories are notoriously fallible in most situations, particularly times of stress.

I agree with you that the rational decisions making goes out the window when you are emotionally charged. I have discussed with my wife multiple times since the incident to recall if she was in any duress, pre-occupied, on the phone, listening to loud music, health issues etc. etc. without sounding like a crime scene investigator. She's maintains her position about being fully and situationally aware of her and the car's role when parking and can recall up to the point within the parking spot when she says the car suddenly accelerated - rest happened within a few secs and it was over.

As I posted on my original thread, the car has about 1100 miles - loosely translated this equates to between 150 - 200 parking events from home, work, visiting friends, errands etc. Majority of the events executed by her.

99% of my logical brain wants to believe the pedal misapplication theory but that 1% human emotional brain still argues - what if it were the machine?

Tesla has reached out for pics of the car / event - hope they are objective, unbiased and completely transparent in their analysis.

I'll take a bruised ego any day over a design flaw.

 

[S-Car.Go]

Hi Folks,

Long time TMC lurker, however first time poster. I wish my first post would have been about the excitement of getting my M3. However, I have a much serious topic to post about.

Today while out for shopping my wife met with an accident in the parking lot of a grocery store here in Chandler, AZ. She is badly shaken up. Issue occurred while trying to park the vehicle in a parking lot of a grocery store. The vehicle was in the parking space position when it suddenly accelerated without any input from her. She said she applied the brakes, however they felt inoperative. It felt as though the driver had no control over braking and the vehicle had a mind of its own.

She turned the steering wheel to avoid directly hitting a dumpster while trying to brake. The passenger side of the vehicle then hit a curb and a concrete wall. After the impact, she managed to turn the vehicle while applying the brakes that eventually brought the vehicle to a stop.

My wife called Tesla, however they were of not much help. The service center individual instructed my wife that they could not tow the car to the service center given the car had suffered damage and they can only accept cars after the damage has been fixed. Not in the state to argue, we called our insurance and had our car towed to a Tesla authorized repair shop.

I know there are several cases registered with NHTSA and I even found class action lawsuit against Tesla regarding sudden or unintended acceleration, I feel mine is the first case of a Model 3 with behavior that has been seen with S or X several times. What is surprising that EVERY instance of this case has pointed to driver error. I find it ridiculous to dismiss people reporting a serious security flaw with a vehicle to saying - the logs show 100% accelerator press by the driver as the car will NOT do ANYTHING the driver does not intend for it to do. Then how do you explain an individual's reaction to STOMP on the wrong pedal while they are trying to ease into a parking spot?? - it is illogical and irrational to ever surmise that a driver's who's so familiar with the concept of regen braking will press the (wrong) pedal so hard that the car would suddenly accelerate like crazy.

What she went through today is very disconcerting and unsettling. My confidence in cutting edge technology is shaken that helps Tesla to beat other automakers in making technologically forward vehicles. I have been a software professional my entire career and can understand bugs / glitches in the Software. It is one thing to not be able to control volume of the radio of my car (as it happened last night while driving from our friend's house, the left scroll button kept moving the steering wheel even though the option was not enabled), it scary to even think of the car doing what it did! The consequences could have been catastrophic. I am thankful that she is safe as there was the wall protecting her from cross traffic on the main street.

Please be careful, cognizant, and caring of your loved ones.

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Note that last week I posted a similar incident that occurred while autoparking my 2017 Tesla Model S. My foot was no not near the accelerator as I just took it off the brake to allow it to auto park. As soon as I noticed it accellerating, I slammed down on the brake and avoided damage to my rear bumper though it did touch the back wall. I reported this to Tesla who said they would download the log.
I guarantee that in my case, my foot was not touching the accelerator.

 

[bonnie]

Note that last week I posted a similar incident that occurred while autoparking my 2017 Tesla Model S. My foot was no not near the accelerator as I just took it off the brake to allow it to auto park. As soon as I noticed it accellerating, I slammed down on the brake and avoided damage to my rear bumper though it did touch the back wall. I reported this to Tesla who said they would download the log.
I guarantee that in my case, my foot was not touching the accelerator.

I don't think that, in your case, it's an issue of SUA - you were autoparking, which allows the car to move independently. It sounds like when you saw the sensors giving bad info, you stopped the car. And it's good you have them checking logs, you might need a sensor recalibrated. But from what you describe, it's not a case of thinking you're braking & the car accelerating.

 

[S-Car.Go]

I don't think that, in your case, it's an issue of SUA - you were autoparking, which allows the car to move independently. It sounds like when you saw the sensors giving bad info, you stopped the car. And it's good you have them checking logs, you might need a sensor recalibrated. But from what you describe, it's not a case of thinking you're braking & the car accelerating.

I was hoping to have heard from Tesla by now regarding the log report. I am very curious what they find. In general I have not found auto park to be a reliable feature, with the P coming on randomly in stop and go traffic on the highway, and on city streets when there are no obvious parking spaces, just lines of cars, so I really never use it. It just so happens that the day before the incident I got the auto park notification as I was backing into a similar parking space, so for the heck of I let it take over the final part of the parking and it worked fine. Not so the following day. I have turned it of completely since then. My car was just in for its one year tune up about 6 weeks ago btw, I would hope checking the sensors was part of the service.

 

[jamnmon66]

I agree with you that the rational decisions making goes out the window when you are emotionally charged. I have discussed with my wife multiple times since the incident to recall if she was in any duress, pre-occupied, on the phone, listening to loud music, health issues etc. etc. without sounding like a crime scene investigator. She's maintains her position about being fully and situationally aware of her and the car's role when parking and can recall up to the point within the parking spot when she says the car suddenly accelerated - rest happened within a few secs and it was over.

As I posted on my original thread, the car has about 1100 miles - loosely translated this equates to between 150 - 200 parking events from home, work, visiting friends, errands etc. Majority of the events executed by her.

99% of my logical brain wants to believe the pedal misapplication theory but that 1% human emotional brain still argues - what if it were the machine?

Tesla has reached out for pics of the car / event - hope they are objective, unbiased and completely transparent in their analysis.

I'll take a bruised ego any day over a design flaw.

My belief, obviously is in the context of having never met either of you and just going on what was stated in this thread added to my prior life experience. It's easy for me to judge since I have no emotional connection other than the desire to avoid the same situation. I think my doubt might be above 1% if I was in your shoes. Not to mention the desire to be supportive of my wife. I'm hopeful & interested in what Tesla says so please report back. I'm sorry about your situation, though, & I'm glad nobody was hurt.

 

[slipnslider]

Most of these "sudden acceleration" accidents are people pressing the gas instead of the brakes, which is a result of not having creep mode on. Creep mode keeps you aware of what pedal your foot is on and you never get confused.

 

[JeffK]

what if it were the machine?

If I recall correctly, there are two redundant sensors on Tesla accelerator pedal to monitor physical position. Both would have had to fail.

I've personally done this a few times in a V8 ICE inside a garage. It happens to people all the time.

 

[mal_tsla]

Most of these "sudden acceleration" accidents are people pressing the gas instead of the brakes, which is a result of not having creep mode on. Creep mode keeps you aware of what pedal your foot is on and you never get confused.

What makes you think this? Plenty of Toyotas, Audis, etc ICEs have had SUA, I dare say in much higher numbers. Their cars always Creep, because they are automatics. Why does their creeping not prevent SUA but a Tesla's lack of creeping causes it?

 

[SageBrush]

Both would have had to fail

At the same time. And recover at the same time.

 

[SageBrush]

Why does their creeping not prevent SUA but a Tesla's lack of creeping causes it?

User error comes in multiple flavors.

 

[mal_tsla]

User error comes in multiple flavors.

Agreed, but that's not the opinion presented:

"Most of these "sudden acceleration" accidents are people pressing the gas instead of the brakes, which is a result of not having creep mode on"

I don't think that can possibly be true...I would say that in "most sudden acceleration" incidents, they occur in a car that cannot have creep disabled.

 

[SageBrush]

Agreed, but that's not the opinion presented:

"Most of these "sudden acceleration" accidents are people pressing the gas instead of the brakes, which is a result of not having creep mode on"

I don't think that can possibly be true...I would say that in "most sudden acceleration" incidents, they occur in a car that cannot have creep disabled.

I cannot imagine how it is known what the particulars of most SUA events are so my advice to you is to ignore the hyperbole.
I do know that I want my foot hovering over the brake pedal when I creep into a parking spot or coast up my driveway so I am going to engage creep in my Model 3.

The comments from manual tranny drivers bring back memories. I was taught to use the clutch to creep so I suspect that my reflex "stomp on the pedal" response would have been OK because the clutch would disengage and at worse the motor would rev.