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Wiki Super Heavy/Starship - General Development Discussion

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Thanks for that. I had never heard of Sea Dragon. The wikipedia page has a nice summary, but I'm glad I watched the YT clip first because I wouldn't have realized that's what was meant for the launch. My favorite part of that page is from a caption on one of the drawings:

Composite of two NASA technical drawings, of the Saturn V rocket and the proposed Sea Dragon rocket, to the same scale. The second stage of Saturn V would fit inside the first-stage engine and nozzle of the Sea Dragon.
 
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Thanks for that. I had never heard of Sea Dragon. The wikipedia page has a nice summary, but I'm glad I watched the YT clip first because I wouldn't have realized that's what was meant for the launch. My favorite part of that page is from a caption on one of the drawings:
That video is impressive but silly at the same time, Sea Dragon was never meant to be launched from that far below the surface of the water.

A much larger portion should have been visible bobbing about before the engines lit.

1705623245547.jpeg
 
I’m not the moderator here, but can we get back to Starship? :D
No news makes for idle minds.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Ship 26 getting all those external stringers? They've put two bands around the middle, about at the level of the tank bulkhead, and they even started on a third band. Last I heard, they were only tack welded in place. Why add so much reinforcement? Why only tack weld it?

Link to a video at a time that shows Ship 26 with two bands of stringers.

 
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No news makes for idle minds.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Ship 26 getting all those external stringers? They've put two bands around the middle, about at the level of the tank bulkhead, and they even started on a third band. Last I heard, they were only tack welded in place. Why add so much reinforcement? Why only tack weld it?

Link to a video at a time that shows Ship 26 with two bands of stringers.


The pathfinder idea sounds right... maybe lauch a mass simulator to see if the reinforcements will work for a stretched version?
 
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From the latest Ars Technica Rocket Report:

A report from the space media and research company Payload analyzes SpaceX's costs in building and developing Starship. This is an important angle that isn't reported often enough, as SpaceX and media outlets tend to focus on technical and schedule aspects of the Starship program. Payload calls Starship's low-cost manufacturing a "breakthrough in rocketry," with SpaceX on a path to eventually reduce the cost of a single flight of a fully reusable Starship rocket to less than $10 million. However, Starship is still very much a development program, and Payload estimates it currently costs around $90 million for SpaceX to build a fully stacked Starship rocket. The vast majority of this cost goes toward the rocket's 39 Raptor engines and labor expenses.
BTW, there is an amusing typo at the end of that Rocket Report:
January 19: Falcon 9 | Starship 7-11 | Vandenberg Space Force Base, California | 04:04 UTC
Starship? 😉 Should be Starlink.
 
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$90M for a fully stacked Starship is still a steal for even fully expended. Once it becomes reusable, watch out!
Yeah, and $10 million for 100 tons is $100/kg. They might be able to scale to 200 tons with the next generation of Starships for $75/kg. (Ignoring inflation)

But that's cost to SpaceX, allowing them to do all manner of massy projects of their own on the cheap. For customers, SpaceX would have a huge demand lever because they could set prices anywhere between their cost and the current customer price per kilogram for Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy flights (roughly $2,500/kg).

It's actually kind of funny. SpaceX will have to keep prices high so they don't completely eradicate other launch providers and get accused of anti-competitive practices. Maybe Starships can be leased to other providers and they can operate them on their own.
 
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It's actually kind of funny. SpaceX will have to keep prices high so they don't completely eradicate other launch providers and get accused of anti-competitive practices.
I realize such a scenario could occur, but logically it makes no sense to me how SpaceX could be accused of anti-competitive behavior just because they invented a much more cost effective method of providing an existing service that there is demand for.
 
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I realize such a scenario could occur, but logically it makes no sense to me how SpaceX could be accused of anti-competitive behavior just because they invented a much more cost effective method of providing an existing service that there is demand for.
If all your competitors go out of business because of your actions, that is, by definition, anti-competitive. Then SpaceX ends up being a monopoly, with all the problems that inevitably brings. We already have a bunch of effective monopolies (e.g. Google, Apple, Microsoft) as a result of them doing the job better than anyone else (and by being entrenched), and they call the shots. The capitalism rulebook says it's a bad thing. Unfortunately, we have less and less of an idea of how to ensure competition when a monopoly seems to provide so much to us. From there, it's a slippery slope that leads to corporatism.
 
Only if those actions are considered predatory in nature.
That's the current law, but consider that it's legal to merge companies and to acquire them - unless that sort of thing would inhibit competition due to excessive consolidation. So it's not an issue of law, but of intent. The laws will adjust to stay on track to the intent as conditions change. That's how the anti-competition laws came into being in the first place; the trusts of the early 20th century came into being, and they were deemed to be bad for the nation. They came into being by using those predatory tactics, so the predatory tactics were outlawed.

Ultimately, the prevailing thinking about capitalism is that competition is needed. The politicians will do whatever it takes to ensure that competition stays alive and well. That's the intent. So they'll use existing laws to make that happen. If that's not enough, they'll reinterpret existing laws. If that's not enough, they'll pass new laws.

This doesn't mean that SpaceX would be fined heavily, or need to be broken up, or that price fixing would be introduced. I don't know what the outcome would be. Politicians might create a requirement that rocket companies lease their vehicles. It would be worded like that, but it would obviously only apply to SpaceX because they'd be the only man left standing.

The alternative, of course, is to allow SpaceX to monopolize access to space, and we find out the hard way what that will mean going forward.
 
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No news makes for idle minds.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Ship 26 getting all those external stringers? They've put two bands around the middle, about at the level of the tank bulkhead, and they even started on a third band. Last I heard, they were only tack welded in place. Why add so much reinforcement? Why only tack weld it?

Link to a video at a time that shows Ship 26 with two bands of stringers.

The pathfinder idea sounds right... maybe launch
a mass simulator to see if the reinforcements will work for a stretched version?
From a new LabPadre video:

Why is S26, a ship with no flaps or tiles, on the engine installation stand? Will it be the first tanker to be sent to LEO?

View attachment 1010742

And why are stringers being added to it?

View attachment 1010743

Why is their scaffolding on the OLT at the level of the ship QD? Looks like some major work is going on.

View attachment 1010744

Now they have added couplers to the two rows of stringers:

1706293211248.png
 
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No tiles. No flaps. It's not an aerodynamic vehicle, so it's not destined for use on Earth, nor will it return to Earth. It's hugely reinforced.

The only thing that occurs to me that makes any sense at all is that they're playing with moving the structural reinforcement from the interior to the exterior. It serves two purposes. The first is to reclaim a small amount of tank volume. The second is MMOD. A bit of extra mass where it'll do more good. It should make a good Whipple shield - if it hits the stringer first. Who knows, maybe the next step is to install a thin skin on top of the stringers.

The speculative reason that they don't create a Starship from scratch this way is that they don't have the tooling to do it and that they can't stack a ring with external stringers.

I can't imagine them laboriously removing the internal stiffener system, but maybe they'll do that. They're doing this, after all.

And now another idea occurred, which is that they're going to need this reinforcement for installation of the HLS landing engines. I would think that a more ideal location would be just under the cargo bulkhead, but moving them away from a possible crew area might be desirable (yes, despite Dragon having a bunch of thrusters practically touching the crew). If true, then they'll install a bunch of thrusters and do some static fires.

Any other crazy speculation?
 
No tiles. No flaps. It's not an aerodynamic vehicle, so it's not destined for use on Earth, nor will it return to Earth. It's hugely reinforced.

The only thing that occurs to me that makes any sense at all is that they're playing with moving the structural reinforcement from the interior to the exterior. It serves two purposes. The first is to reclaim a small amount of tank volume. The second is MMOD. A bit of extra mass where it'll do more good. It should make a good Whipple shield - if it hits the stringer first. Who knows, maybe the next step is to install a thin skin on top of the stringers.

The speculative reason that they don't create a Starship from scratch this way is that they don't have the tooling to do it and that they can't stack a ring with external stringers.

I can't imagine them laboriously removing the internal stiffener system, but maybe they'll do that. They're doing this, after all.

And now another idea occurred, which is that they're going to need this reinforcement for installation of the HLS landing engines. I would think that a more ideal location would be just under the cargo bulkhead, but moving them away from a possible crew area might be desirable (yes, despite Dragon having a bunch of thrusters practically touching the crew). If true, then they'll install a bunch of thrusters and do some static fires.

Any other crazy speculation?
Structure for docking during refueling. Double wall for fuel depot.
Why couldn't they stack externally stringered rings?