They don't have to have PG&E turn it off, they can just disable their equipment. The main thing it would avoid is the massive demand charges for the months it is disabled.
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Supercharger - Kettleman City, CA - Bernard Dr. (LIVE, 56 V3 stalls)
- Thread starter MarcoRP
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- California supercharger
Johnny Vector
Member
Are you saying the quiescent power draw is significant?
Well let's see, I would guess 2-300 watts per cabinet, so if that's right then a max sized group (7 cabinets) might by 2 kW idle power, or 50 kWh per day. I guess you might as well save that if it's easy, but cost-wise it's less than a percent of energy usage. And a big station like that is likely to have significant demand charges, which idle current won't contribute to.
Or did you mean something else?
Johnny Vector
Member
Correct. But demand charges tend to be more expensive than the energy charges. And if they have it shut down for a month there are no demand charges.
I’m speaking of high demand charges that need to be amortized across lots of energy dispensed. Running Kettleman 2 at a light load increases costs for both it and Kettleman 1.
Demand charges vary, but $5 per kW would be a good, conservative estimate. Having K2 online could rack up tens of thousands of dollars in demand charges. Charging a single Model 3 one time during a billing period could result in a $1,250 demand charge and probably $5 worth of energy charges (a bit of an oversimplification since peak demand is usually calculated across a 30 minute window). If you can’t amortize that across a lot charging sessions, your effective cost per kWh dispensed goes through the roof. Considering the proximity of K1 and K2, having K2 online when it isn’t needed also increases the operating costs at K1.
It is likely much less expensive to turn K2 off during the slow months and let K1 handle the load. This will change as more Teslas end up on the road, but for now, it’s probably best to only use it during peak travel.
Demand charges vary, but $5 per kW would be a good, conservative estimate. Having K2 online could rack up tens of thousands of dollars in demand charges. Charging a single Model 3 one time during a billing period could result in a $1,250 demand charge and probably $5 worth of energy charges (a bit of an oversimplification since peak demand is usually calculated across a 30 minute window). If you can’t amortize that across a lot charging sessions, your effective cost per kWh dispensed goes through the roof. Considering the proximity of K1 and K2, having K2 online when it isn’t needed also increases the operating costs at K1.
It is likely much less expensive to turn K2 off during the slow months and let K1 handle the load. This will change as more Teslas end up on the road, but for now, it’s probably best to only use it during peak travel.
This is likely the rate Tesla is paying here. It looks like there’s quite a bit of money to be saved by temporarily closing the station during low vehicle charging demand periods. If and when they add a megapack and solar here then that should make it worthwhile to just leave the station open at all times.
ElectricCyclist
Member
Since these are EV only services I don't believe they would be on an industrial rate. Linked below is the Business EV rate schedule and due to the size of Tesla I am pretty sure they are on BEV-2-S as they have PGE transformers installed.
What is interesting about PGEs EV Rate Schedules is there is no demand charge but instead a subscription charge which is based on a kW Block size that Tesla would estimate. Sounds a little too confusing for me but researching this I don't think peoples assumption on demand charges applies for a PGE service like this.
ElectricCyclist
Member
Adding a snippet of the link I provided above showing the uniqueness of PGE EV rate schedule.
Johnny Vector
Member
Good find!
Also, the entire discussion is based on the belief that K1 and K2 are separate with regard to demand charges or subscription. This seems unlikely. I suppose it's possible that there's a glitch in how the tariff is written that would allow them to do that, but if so PG&E is probably working to change that.
Demand or subscription charges are there to account for the extra delivery infrastructure needed for high peak power. Given that K1 and K2 are adjacent, they draw from the same infrastructure, and thus should be considered a single installation. If I'm PG&E and Tesla is able to split them, I'm gonna be lobbying to change that.
Also, it's unclear from this whether you can change your subscription on a monthly basis. If you can, and the two stations managed to get separate accounts, then it makes sense to turn off one station for a month sometimes. If either of those is not true, then it doesn't.
ElectricCyclist
Member
Hey Johnny. I also believe you are incorrect with your assumption that this is one one service. They are fed from totally different transformation and are not on adjacent properties so I believe they are totally separate in PGEs system and would each have a subscription charge for Tesla to determine.
In any case I think Tesla could have modified their subscription allowance on K2 and just turned it off for the time being until they start to see high usage at K1 and then update their subscription charges and turn it back on as long as it is easy for them to do with PGE.
There is no good reason for these two sites to be considered a single installation, regardless of how PG&E "feels" about it. That said, there may be good reason for Tesla to keep it powered down except holiday travel periods until it is both paved and Megapacks are installed. The pictures I saw earlier clearly had a pad for one or more Megapacks, but I haven't been down there or seen recent pictures to know if they have been installed.
This is why you should navigate to the Supercharger. If you did that you would notice that the one you initially chose is "Temporary Closure" or similar and can choose another. Tejon and Copus are only 11 miles apart.
Getting to the supercharger isn't hard. Knowing if it's open or not isn't hard. It's adding them, then taking them away that makes planning hard. Stopping at busy Tejon is a pain when Corpus is a better, use up mileage to add more quickly and get further in my journey home, spot. Similar to Kettleman. I'd rather stop at the lower one near food, than the isolated one.
I can confirm two individual services (meters) at K2: two individual 3325 kVA transformers fed off a 12 kV primary line with 1/0 aluminum underground conductor. Across the hwy K1 is fed off a single 2500 kVA transformer for the chargers also off a 12 kV primary with 1/0 conductor and another 112.5 kVA transformer for the lounge. So Tesla has at least 4 services (meters) at Kettleman City.
And as far as I can see, none of the meters in Kettleman City are on an EV rate, FWIW Firebaugh is. That obviously could change at any time.
And as far as I can see, none of the meters in Kettleman City are on an EV rate, FWIW Firebaugh is. That obviously could change at any time.
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Johnny Vector
Member
So probably they do each have their own demand charges or subscription fees. Which really goes against the point of those fees, since the peak demand times are 100% correlated between all the services. Well, good for Tesla then! But I bet the demand charges are pretty outrageous if they pull the full 9 MW!
Out of curiosity, when one talks about a 12 kV line, does that mean line-to-line or line-to-ground?
ElectricCyclist
Member
This is quite surprising to me that none of the services would be EV as three of the four are dedicated EV load. Also interesting transformer size for K2 in SCE territory we go from 2500 KVA units to 3750 KVA units don't have a 3325 KVA standard but each utility is unique in some aspects.
EDIT (couldn't correct original post anymore): The lounge is on the same 2500 kVA service as the chargers so 3 total services at Kettleman City. I had to zoom in a bit to see that K1 is all on one meter, lounge included.
As far as EV rates I've seen supercharger sites change rate schedules after opening so may happen here as soon as Tesla settles in with having K2 operational 24/7. I know Patterson's rate was changed about two months after opening because utility thought usage would be way lower than what it actually turned out to be so they had to adjust accordingly. EV rates seem to be prevalent at newer sites such as Tejon outlets, Firebaugh, etc.. None of the older sites such as Bakersfield, Harris Ranch, Gustine, or Buttonwillow are on EV rates. They may have a better older grandfathered rate.
3325 kVA seems to be a PG&E thing as the K2, Firebaugh, and Tejon Outlets have identical electrical service configurations with these transformer sizes. I think with transformer manufacturers like for example, Eaton, it's not a catalog item but I'm sure they'll make a custom size if you're a big enough customer.
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