ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Summertime peak rate (weekdays 2-9pm) on my time of use EV plan is $0.60/kWh.
Bonkers.
Although with net metering and powerwalls I almost always sell power at that price instead of buy, so…
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Supercharger Shock!
- Thread starter Beasts
- Start date
Bonkers.
Although with net metering and powerwalls I almost always sell power at that price instead of buy, so…
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Not as generous as you think. Here’s a Pacific Gas and Electric rate tariff for large commercial customers with demands greater than 1 MW.
Demand charges range from $13 to $28(!) per kw depending on season and voltage supplied to the site from the grid.
Per kWh charges range from $0.10 to $0.13.
So yeah, it’s pretty easy to get to $0.40-0.60/kWh delivered to a car in California…
Supercharging is like buying bottled water at gas station. Charging at home is like using your tap water. What’s to complain about?
Exelion
Member
-Superchargers have a lot of plug cabinets. Lots of cabinets take up lots of space and lots of space cost high in rent. However, I’d rather have that than one or two cabinets per, scattered all across a town.
-Superchargers push lots of power. Lots of power at once needs lots of money. As opposed to some DCFC’s where only a few handles are 150kw and the rest are 50kw.
-Almost all the Superchargers I’ve visited have either 100% fully working chargers or close to it. Quality, regular maintenance costs money. As opposed to some DCFC’s I’ve used (with Tesla CCS) half or most aren’t working for weeks. I won’t mention names (like Blink or EvGo). And don’t even get me started with simple things like emptying the trash and sweeping the lot!!
-Tesla is generous enough to give free charging before 10:00am and after 7:00pm on holiday weekends. I really like that and looking at how many people are there, it’s a good idea. EA has a few days a year which are free but not like Tesla’s plan.
-so yes, on paper, the $0.4x per kwh charge may seem like a lot, that is until you start charging at non-tesla DCFC’s. Then you realize just how far ahead they really are.
-the comparison with bottled water is a good one. One only needs to look at the markup on snacks, or just about anything else sold at a road-trip gas station as a good analogy. $0.4x per kwh actually isn’t too bad, really.
-Superchargers push lots of power. Lots of power at once needs lots of money. As opposed to some DCFC’s where only a few handles are 150kw and the rest are 50kw.
-Almost all the Superchargers I’ve visited have either 100% fully working chargers or close to it. Quality, regular maintenance costs money. As opposed to some DCFC’s I’ve used (with Tesla CCS) half or most aren’t working for weeks. I won’t mention names (like Blink or EvGo). And don’t even get me started with simple things like emptying the trash and sweeping the lot!!
-Tesla is generous enough to give free charging before 10:00am and after 7:00pm on holiday weekends. I really like that and looking at how many people are there, it’s a good idea. EA has a few days a year which are free but not like Tesla’s plan.
-so yes, on paper, the $0.4x per kwh charge may seem like a lot, that is until you start charging at non-tesla DCFC’s. Then you realize just how far ahead they really are.
-the comparison with bottled water is a good one. One only needs to look at the markup on snacks, or just about anything else sold at a road-trip gas station as a good analogy. $0.4x per kwh actually isn’t too bad, really.
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Buying bottled water is a good analogy. but we choose a better option, for us, which is a cooler, water from home and ice. No plastic bottle to properly dispose of and practically no cost. Just a habit we've gotten in to.
All good points from Excelion but, while justifying the price Tesla charges, it was still a shock and puts a smile on my face every time I go to the garage and our S is happily filling up on that $.12/kWh fuel. And now I'm curious what kind of range difference the new 4680 cells will make and whether Tesla will decide to increase the range or just lower the weight.
Got another, not totally unexpected, surprise when we decided to make sure our 110 volt charging cable would function properly. It worked fine except that it took 48 hours to add 35% charge! Yes, the 220 volt charger was worth every dime.
I've also just noticed that the battery drain when the car is parked in the garage unplugged is only about 1 to 2%/day. Again a pleasant surprise after reading about others who seem to be having quite a different experience. I may not be comparing apples to apples as I don't have all of the specifics but a good number none the less.
Just washed the car yesterday, now all we have to do is get the driveway fixed so it doesn't get covered with mud every time we leave the house!
I think what I've been doing here is called "stream of consciousness." My apologies, I'm just avoiding the TV.
All good points from Excelion but, while justifying the price Tesla charges, it was still a shock and puts a smile on my face every time I go to the garage and our S is happily filling up on that $.12/kWh fuel. And now I'm curious what kind of range difference the new 4680 cells will make and whether Tesla will decide to increase the range or just lower the weight.
Got another, not totally unexpected, surprise when we decided to make sure our 110 volt charging cable would function properly. It worked fine except that it took 48 hours to add 35% charge! Yes, the 220 volt charger was worth every dime.
I've also just noticed that the battery drain when the car is parked in the garage unplugged is only about 1 to 2%/day. Again a pleasant surprise after reading about others who seem to be having quite a different experience. I may not be comparing apples to apples as I don't have all of the specifics but a good number none the less.
Just washed the car yesterday, now all we have to do is get the driveway fixed so it doesn't get covered with mud every time we leave the house!
I think what I've been doing here is called "stream of consciousness." My apologies, I'm just avoiding the TV.
i ask too....i moved from wisc to colorado and have gone back to visit and HATE IT THERE...the vibe is so low there....i have driven thru ohio alot and feel the same way...colorado has to me a very light vibe and very great weather compared to midwest.
You're right. They're typically lower.
The difference is probably on-peak versus off-peak, though, as others have mentioned.
I doubt those rates take demand charges into account, which is where businesses tend to get hit. The ultimate price for a business isnt cheaper.
Understanding the differences between your commercial and residential electric bills — Sunistics
It's been my experience that people take a far closer look at their electric bill from their home than they do at their office. This makes sense: you feel like you have more control over your personal energy usage. Plus, many people don't even see their electric bill at work. And if you do take a gl
www.sunisticsgroup.com
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
I've had a loaner M3 instead of my brand new model X for the last 5 weeks and it now looks like they're going to keep it another 2 weeks. I've put 1500 miles on the loaner almost all of it with free unlimited supercharging. It appears the trick to getting free unlimited super charging is to accept a brand new Tesla that has so many issues that they'll take forever fixing them 
Sad thing is I'm REALLY familiar with the M3 and know almost nothing about the MXP
Sad thing is I'm REALLY familiar with the M3 and know almost nothing about the MXP
pilotSteve
Active Member
… or buy a 2017 S/X that came with free, unlimited supercharging that transfers to the next owner when I sell. Sweet!!!I've had a loaner M3 instead of my brand new model X for the last 5 weeks and it now looks like they're going to keep it another 2 weeks. I've put 1500 miles on the loaner almost all of it with free unlimited supercharging. It appears the trick to getting free unlimited super charging is to accept a brand new Tesla that has so many issues that they'll take forever fixing them
Sad thing is I'm REALLY familiar with the M3 and know almost nothing about the MXP
Well, the gardening is much better in Ohio and... We do enjoy our 12 acres with the lush trees, shrubs, vegetables and lawn and the wide variety of wild critters but we're pleased that we are loners because our acceptance level with our rural neighbors isn't very high. One indicator of this is that we might see another Tesla once in 6 months. And the humidity and the mosquitoes! We're still taking the lemons and making lemonade.
So, look at it this way, you get to experience two nice, sporty, fun to drive cars for the price of one! And Tesla is covering your fuel cost. You might also appreciate your X even more when you move back up to its' level of performance. Sad that you have had so many issues.I've had a loaner M3 instead of my brand new model X for the last 5 weeks and it now looks like they're going to keep it another 2 weeks. I've put 1500 miles on the loaner almost all of it with free unlimited supercharging. It appears the trick to getting free unlimited super charging is to accept a brand new Tesla that has so many issues that they'll take forever fixing them
Sad thing is I'm REALLY familiar with the M3 and know almost nothing about the MXP
Those numbers are averages of what companies and residences pay per kWh, which I'm pretty sure does factor in demand fees. The fact that some businesses pay more than the average doesn't change anything. After all, it means that some businesses pay considerably less.
Demand fees are the reason why Tesla uses large battery packs to spread their load out through a much larger portion of the day.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
You are making assumptions and seem to be suggesting that Tesla’s supercharger pricing is not reflective of what they actually pay to operate and maintain supercharging sites. A commercial EV charging station would seem to be the very definition of an outlier given the data you’ve provided. I posted an actual commercial tariff upthread from PGE in California for reference.
A tiny fraction of Tesla’s supercharger stations have battery storage deployed. Ironically, there are more Tesla batteries deployed at Electrify America stations than Tesla stations.
Depends on usage. At $28 per kilowatt, the 350 kVA cabinet input for four stalls means a maximum average of just 87.5 kVA per stall. Assuming a 1.0 power factor (guessing here), that's a maximum of $2,450 per stall in demand cost per month. If you assume an average of 50% occupancy over 12 hours, delivering an average of 2 kWh per minute, that's 21,600 kWh per month, or an 8.8 cent demand fee, assuming there's no battery or solar input at all.
Of course, for superchargers that have lower utilization or that are mostly utilized only during commute hours, that number will be way higher. Of course, the batteries and solar input should push the number back down.
On the flip side, it also means that the higher the rates that they charge, the fewer people will use the superchargers, and the more each user will cost. The best thing for Tesla to do would be to charge higher costs during hours when lots of people need the chargers, and deeply discount the cost during other parts of the day/week, so that the demand costs get amortized over a larger number of vehicles.
A tiny fraction of Tesla’s supercharger stations have battery storage deployed. Ironically, there are more Tesla batteries deployed at Electrify America stations than Tesla stations.
All the stations I've paid attention to in California have battery storage, but that's admittedly a small percentage of the total number of stations.
That is not at all how demand cost works. You are saying you can average it out to 87.5 kVA and then use that value to multiply by the dollar amount per kW. But demand charges are not about the average. The whole point of them is to support what infrastructure is needed to that site to support the highest maximum power draw. They are about any momentary PEAK power level. If that station really does temporarily get to 350 kVA for even a couple of minutes, you use that 350 number, not 87.5. So this would be 350 times $28, which is $9800, not $2450.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
You guys are saying the same thing in a different way. They did the same math, just divided it by the 4 stalls per cabinet (9800/4 = 2450).
Ooh, I just reread that, and realized I did miss that detail. Sorry @dgatwood for missing that you said $2450 per stall. It was odd to divide the total power by 4 to calculate the power per stall and then apply the power factor (by what it's not based on) and then state the demand charge per stall, rather than multiplying it back up by 4 again to what the actual demand charge total for the site would be for the month. I guess the calculation does work out the same either way, but it lost me.
I've seen it a lot on this forum where people try to figure demand charges by calculating weighted averages per stall based on usage to come up with an average power draw level for the month and then multiply that by the demand charge. I thought that's what I read there the first time.
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