Superchargers for Model 3

[stopcrazypp]

I expect there to be an option (extra cost) for the Model 3 for "unlimited long distance travel on the Supercharger network." But I also expect some clarification of the wording in the owner's agreement that frequent use of (in this case "sole reliance on") local Superchargers is not allowed. If there's nothing like that in there now, then it may be tricky for Tesla to go after these types of customers.

Actually I think it is the opposite. There is nothing in the ownership agreement that guarantees you will have access to the network (even when it was a paid option, it was written as paying for supercharger hardware and software, not for access). So Tesla is free to set restrictions. However, if Tesla starts charging pay per use fees for existing users they can get in trouble in terms of false advertising (since they promised "free").

 

[tga]

IMHO, Tesla would be within their rights to prevent this customer from being able to use (abuse) his local supercharger.

There's (currently) no way to limit an owner to a subset of superchargers. If you read some of wk057 or Ingineer's, it's pretty clear that "supercharger enabled" is set in the car, not on the Supercharger side. When a car has supercharging enabled or disabled, it's done by flipping a bit in the car. There's no way to say which Superchargers you may or may not use.

Yes, data is exchanged between the car and the Supercharger, including the car's VIN, but nothing appears to be done with that data - wk057 wrote that he configured a car to report a bogus VIN (all 6's or all 0's), and the car Supercharged fine.

 

[tga]

Supercharger network is the main reason why an EV is even feasible for me. It is the MAJOR advantage that Tesla has over all the other EV cars. None of them are invested in a charging network or consider their cars to be anything other than a commuter car for local area. I can't even consider low range options, even though I am an extremely low mileage driver (current car owned since 2004 & it has 61,000 miles). I typically live in single family homes, but usually rent. I would consider adding a 220V plug IF it only cost a few hundred dollars and IF the existing electric panel had space and IF my landlord allowed me to. See all the IFs? I would NOT invest in an expensive wall charger or expand an electrical panel for a rental house. We move on average every 2 yrs (military family), but this time it's after only 1 yr. Fast superchargers are essential to being able to actually move to a new state, often 1/2 way or all the way across the country, as well as trips. I would typically charge at home IF possible, but there might be places where I have to rely on superchargers (probably only 1x per week) for my local charging.

Not to discourage anyone, but I would never consider buying an EV if I had to rely on public charging stations (L2 or superchargers). Sure people do it, but I'd be completely freaked out. And if I was forced to move every year or two? Yikes. What if you get transferred to a Supercharger wasteland (like North Dakota)?

 

[qqstormus2]

Superchargers or HPWCs? Are they a 5' pedestal or a box hanging on a wall? L2 charging like HPWCs needs to be the longterm urban solution.

5' pedestals...Atlantic Station. There are regular charging options for other EVS but I'm fairly certain what I see in my garage are Superchargers.

 

[qqstormus2]

Are you sure it's a "supercharger" in the parking garage? I'm not aware of any superchargers in garages in Atlanta - I think you are thinking HPWC - or destination charging. Not as fast as

I hear ya loud and clear however it's my only charging option and it's a perk on my HOA that I'm essentially paying for anyway.

I would move my vehicle to my assigned parking space after charging of course. But living here would also afford me the opportunity to charge 4am in the morning if I see fit when I wouldn';t have to wait in line to use it (assuming there is a line when Model 3 production and delivery starts rolling).

 

[WarpedOne]

It is quite clear:
1.SC will be optional upgrade. This reduces the usage, lowers the base price and enables future revenue when some people decide they want it, say when a new SC opens near you where before there was none around. It might get included in some package of options, again to maximize revenue.
2. it will be pay-up-front scheme. This maximizes revenue. They might decide for time limited offer, say 4 years of SC access for just $1000. Time limited offer enables lower price and is note too "bean-countery".

SC network is still weak in many areas so tesla is better of with a car that does not inlude a price item that many find no value in it.

 

[qqstormus2]

Are you sure it's a "supercharger" in the parking garage? I'm not aware of any superchargers in garages in Atlanta - I think you are thinking HPWC - or destination charging. Not as fast as superchargers.

Yep 10 superchargers on level P2 of the parking garage at Atlantic station.

 

[MrBoylan]

Yep 10 superchargers on level P2 of the parking garage at Atlantic station.

Yup! Those be superchargers. Nice!

 

[MiamiNole]

In a previous comment, I noted that Tesla also had destination charging in the works for superchargers, such as that one garage mentioned in Atlanta. Who pays for those (installation and/or power)? Is it a joint venture with Tesla and whatever municipality the chargers will be located in? How does that currently work with Level 2 charging? Are most L2 chargers at destinations an amenity for customers/employees/etc.?

 

[qqstormus2]

In a previous comment, I noted that Tesla also had destination charging in the works for superchargers, such as that one garage mentioned in Atlanta. Who pays for those (installation and/or power)? Is it a joint venture with Tesla and whatever municipality the chargers will be located in? How does that currently work with Level 2 charging? Are most L2 chargers at destinations an amenity for customers/employees/etc.?

If I had to guess (no actual knowledge just yet) I'd say it's a joint venture between Tesla and Atlantic Station. Atlantic Station is a live work shop community so there are ample shops and restaurants to go to while your Tesla is charging. Ideally, I'm sure Tesla's views it as a destination charger. I'd imagine us as owners of the lofts pay for it or at least apart of it in HOA fees but in turn it help with the value of our units as well when trying to sell/buy so it's probably a wash.

Atlantic station also has regular charges for other EVs as well in a different section of the parking deck on the same level.

 

[MiamiNole]

Atlantic station also has regular charges for other EVs as well in a different section of the parking deck on the same level.

I assume the other chargers are free and are maintained by Atlantic Station. I wonder how the agreement works with the Atlantic Station superchargers though. If you had somebody that was "abusing" charging using those chargers, would Tesla ever care? Would Atlantic Station be on the hook to regulate use? I can see this being a solution for local charging moving forward. Tesla will build "municipality X" a SC station as a destination charging solution, however, "municipality X" is responsible for the cost of electricity and maintenance.

I can see this being the eventual solution (and an eventual benefit for buying a Tesla vehicle). I just don't think that Tesla should be on the hook for providing SC access to those that don't have access to local charging.

 

[diamond.g]

What ever happened to the Solar City panel plan for the Superchargers?

 

[strider]

In a previous comment, I noted that Tesla also had destination charging in the works for superchargers, such as that one garage mentioned in Atlanta. Who pays for those (installation and/or power)? Is it a joint venture with Tesla and whatever municipality the chargers will be located in? How does that currently work with Level 2 charging? Are most L2 chargers at destinations an amenity for customers/employees/etc.?

I can tell you that for the SC's going in at an Indian Casino in Oklahoma, Tesla is providing the chargers, the casino is providing the power. Their thinking is that folks will come in and eat, gamble, etc while charging. They also have a hotel on-site so it could be used by guests as well.

 

[Red Sage]

Could Tesla be justified in preventing this kind of user from utilizing the SCs near their home? When purchasing the vehicle is there anything in the agreement about SC usage, and if Tesla reserves the right to cut you off (a la AT&T and unlimited data)?

Justification comes from doing what you say you are going to do. Tesla Motors has not said that Superchargers are 'off limits' when they are 'near your home'. Not once. Ever.

Tesla Motors has said that in certain Metropolitan areas, where dense populations and high-rise living structures make 'home charging' a rare happenstance.... They intend to serve the needs of Customers with Superchargers to be used as needed. Yes, the primary purpose of the Supercharger network as a whole is to enable long distance travel between population centers... But, a significant goal is to make the experience of owning an electric vehicle as convenient as possible. Thus, serving the charging needs of those who live in densely populated areas is also of paramount importance, and Superchargers can fill that need in urban and metropolitan areas.

To me this really qualifies as supercharger abuse.

Yeah? Well, whatever. When someone goes to buy a Chevrolet Malibu, no one at the 'independent franchised dealership' gives one whit whether they intend to use it for a daily commute, as a door-to-door sales vehicle, for taxi services, or as a friggin' potted plant.

Similarly, Tesla Motors does not give a flaming fig fart how you intend to use a car after you buy it. They have expressed their hope: 1) That most people will charge at home if they can, and use the Supercharger network as they will on road trips. 2) That if people who are low on a charge must use one near their homes, that they do so responsibly, and be aware of and considerate of the charging needs of others.

Everywhere I see references to Supercharger use on Tesla's web site, it's "Free long distance travel on the Supercharger network" (emphasis mine) not "unlimited free supercharger access." Why should Tesla subsidize this guy's business? Why would someone base their livelihood on gaming the system like this?

I remember Elon Musk saying something to the effect, "I don't care. Use it as often as you like. Don't worry about it." Of course, the question he was answering was a bit different, relative to whether or not constant or repeated use of the Supercharger network might result in damage to the battery pack... But I think it applies to your concerns as well.

Once again, there are numerous types of 'business' that rely upon using a car, just as there are many that rely upon using a telephone. Who's to say that someone doing real estate sales is more legitimately allowed to regularly use Superchargers than someone doing Uber/Lyft/taxi services? T-Mobile offers me an 'Unlimited' service, but I hardly ever call anyone... Meanwhile, my Brother is on the same plan and he is constantly on the phone. T-Mobile doesn't care either way, as long as the bill is paid.

Someone driving a Prius for their daily commute across I-10 is unlikely to visit a gas station as often as someone who uses a Ferrari 488 GTB as a daily driver on the 405 FWY. Exxon/Mobil doesn't care either way. And they never will.

Tesla Motors already knows that there will be extremes of high use as well as extremes of minimal use for the Supercharger network. No matter your protests, very few people will even have the time to attempt to use Superchargers in a manner that could be considered 'abusive'. Their efforts will most certainly be trumped both by the grand majority of people who primarily charge at home, as well as those who simply do not drive very much at all.

IMHO, Tesla would be within their rights to prevent this customer from being able to use (abuse) his local supercharger.

Sure. If they laid out such restrictions from the outset. And... They haven't. Because they employ lots of really smart people. And those people do not foresee a problem.

I expect there to be an option (extra cost) for the Model 3 for "unlimited long distance travel on the Supercharger network." But I also expect some clarification of the wording in the owner's agreement that frequent use of (in this case "sole reliance on") local Superchargers is not allowed. If there's nothing like that in there now, then it may be tricky for Tesla to go after these types of customers.

No such 'clarification' is forthcoming, as it is not necessary at all. It doesn't matter what your 'home' address is, Tesla Motors cannot possibly know what your intention is before you charge. They may be able to determine a pattern in your charging habits. But if they suddenly cut your access, with little or no warning, that will certainly lead to legal action.

Imagine someone making it home late in the evening from a road trip, and coasting in on about a 5% charge. Their intention is to plug in at home and awake with enough range to take care of their needs for the day. But, before they settle in for the night, they get a call that a relative that is 200+ miles away is in the hospital in critical condition. They may choose to: 1) Charge at home overnight, and wait to leave with a 'mostly full' tank sometime the next morning; or 2) visit the Supercharger location that is 12 miles away, fill to 90%, then hit the road immediately to go see about their Brother, Sister, Daughter, Son, Aunt, Uncle, Mom, Dad, or Grandparents.

SC network is still weak in many areas so tesla is better [off] with a car that does not [include] a price item that many find no value in it.

Criminy. I am very certain that anyone who is aware of Tesla Motors today can find value in the Supercharger network. No matter what 'weakness' is currently perceived in the Supercharger network, it will be largely eliminated by Q4 2017. Those who cannot be satisfied with Tesla's efforts by then are welcome to wait until 2019 or later to put in their orders. Or, better yet, they can wait to buy some type of AUDI e-tron or BMW i-vehicle or even a Chevrolet BOLT or Nissan LEAF variant in the far flung future. Something tells me that your concept of 'many' will in fact be a minority among potential EV owners going forward.

What ever happened to the Solar City panel plan for the Superchargers?

The same thing that happened to a late 2013 release of Model X. Plans changed. The Model S was much more successful than Tesla Motors thought it would be. The priority became rapid expansion of the Supercharger network for Distance travel. It was likely going to be done a lot slower at first. With more funds applied to each Supercharger location. But with the expansion of operations to Europe and Asia, it became necessary to streamline the Supercharger installation process as much as possible. Thus, Supercharger locations were connected to the grid, for the most part. Luckily, it is possible for Tesla Motors to purchase electricity from Clean Energy Providers, whether wind, geothermal, hydroelectric, or solar. It is not absolutely necessary for the Solar Panels to be installed at the Supercharger location itself. But where the Solar Panels and Battery Backup are installed a complete Tesla Experience is readily identified.

 

[Az_Rael]

I expect Tesla may eventually have to include some sort of "commercial use" limitation to the supercharger network. That might actually involve writing terms of service for the network itself, which might be nice to have. Especially if its a paid option on the Model 3. I would want to know what I was paying for exactly if I have to pay.

Taxis, real estate agents, etc - basically anyone who registers their vehicle for commercial use should probably have some separate set of terms for supercharger use that most likely involves paying in some manner - maybe to get their own dedicated superchargers or something. I mean, a taxi service can really clog up a supercharger for regular users, and I think this has been an issue at a station overseas.

 

[Tina C]

And if I was forced to move every year or two? Yikes. What if you get transferred to a Supercharger wasteland (like North Dakota)?

Bite your tongue about N Dakota - I hate cold weather! I already know I am moving to a supercharger wasteland this summer - San Antonio TX. I have family that lives near S. Padre Island/Mexico Border and no superchargers anywhere nearby, and over range if the M3 only gets 200 miles. I'm hoping it will be better before my M3 gets delivered. But I also know we will move again mid 2018, so I actually hope I get delivery before we move. I guess if we go to somewhere like Korea where there are 0 superchargers I will have to see if there is anything workable, or store my car for a few years, or sell it & re-order. If we go to Europe we are set! There are so many things in my life that are in constant upheaval that I have just learned to not wait around and just move forward and live life.

 

[Saghost]

If we go to Europe we are set!

I don't know if you're aware of it, but European Teslas use a different charge port, based on the Type 2/Mennekes design (similar to J1772 with a couple extra phases connected,) and so do their Superchargers.

It probably won't be hard to get/make an adapter to do AC charging of a US spec car in Europe (though you'd be limited to a single phase,) but Supercharging will be difficult unless Tesla creates an adapter (it wouldn't have to be a smart adapter, since the communications are the same - just physically connecting the different ports.)
Walter

 

[tga]

There are so many things in my life that are in constant upheaval that I have just learned to not wait around and just move forward and live life.

Fair enough - can't argue with that. I won't wish a transfer to N Dakota - I'm in NH, and that's cold enough. Northern plains? No thanks. Be careful re: shipping to other countries/continents - sometimes the connector (on the car) is different - they use a Mennekes connector in Europe (different than the US).

I had a grad school classmate from S Korea who bought a car (Mitsubishi Lancer Evo) in the US and shipped it back to S. Korea when he went home. They were much harder to get there than here. He could probably resell for a profit.

 

[Tina C]

I had a grad school classmate from S Korea who bought a car (Mitsubishi Lancer Evo) in the US and shipped it back to S. Korea when he went home. They were much harder to get there than here. He could probably resell for a profit.

Probably could, although Korea has an 100% import tax on foreign cars, so most of the non-Korean cars on the road are luxury status cars. We lived there for 2 yrs and the military shipped one of our cars to & from. We didn't have to pay import tax, since it technically wasn't imported and it would be shipped back out with us. But if I had sold it to a Korean, they would have had to pay the import tax. I never had a problem finding my car (green Ford Contour) in a parking lot. Almost every Korean car on the road was white, silver, or black with an occasional red.

I don't know if you're aware of it, but European Teslas use a different charge port, based on the Type 2/Mennekes design (similar to J1772 with a couple extra phases connected,) and so do their Superchargers.

Good to know! Hopefully Tesla would have an adapter solution for us or I could get the charger port swapped out for Europe, and then swapped back for the US. But hey, still crossing my fingers we will ever get stationed in Europe.

 

[MrBoylan]

Justification comes from doing what you say you are going to do. Tesla Motors has not said that Superchargers are 'off limits' when they are 'near your home'. Not once. Ever.

Nor have they said, "Feel free to use your local Supercharger whenever you like." Not once. Ever. If they have, please send me a reference to that. The web site specifically says (and has for quite some time), "Free long distance travel on the Supercharger network," "not "free unlimited use of Tesla Superchargers." In fact, they have sent out letters to frequent local Supercharger users asking them to reduce their usage and move their cars as soon as charging is complete.

And I quote, "As as frequent user of local Superchargers, we ask that you decrease your local Supercharging and promptly move your Model S once charging is complete."

It's not just a "well these guys were leaving their cars parked there all day" thing. It's a "stop using local superchargers - that's not what they're intended for and you're holding up other customers who are trying to drive long distance, trying to use the Superchargers for what they were designed for" kind of thing. If Tesla allows Supercharger abuse, people will get sick of waiting in line to charge and will quickly abandon the idea that Teslas are suitable for long distance travel. This is a real danger as more Teslas hit the road, particularly ones with Supercharger access. There's only so quickly they can build new Supercharger stations and add bays to existing ones. It's expensive and time-consuming to do so and to maintain them.

I'm quite confident that Tesla will be able to satisfy the increased demand over time, but we simply see two completely different paths to get there. I say they'll charge for the SC option on the Model 3 and invest that into the SC network and they'll make it clear that Superchargers are not intended for frequent local use. Your vision is that Tesla can and will be able to afford to build new Supercharger stations to accommodate the huge surge in demand without charging extra in the Model 3 to do so, and that they can keep the rules about Supercharger access as ambiguous as they are now, allowing local users to use the Superchargers as often as they like with no repercussions. How many Uber/Lyft/Taxi/TLC black car drivers charging multiple times at week at their local supercharger does it take to spoil the experience of long distance drivers who just want to get in and out quickly and be on their way? Not many.

Tesla Motors has said that in certain Metropolitan areas, where dense populations and high-rise living structures make 'home charging' a rare happenstance.... They intend to serve the needs of Customers with Superchargers to be used as needed. Yes, the primary purpose of the Supercharger network as a whole is to enable long distance travel between population centers... But, a significant goal is to make the experience of owning an electric vehicle as convenient as possible. Thus, serving the charging needs of those who live in densely populated areas is also of paramount importance, and Superchargers can fill that need in urban and metropolitan areas.

Where/when did Musk or anyone from Tesla officially say, "we are building Superchargers for local use?" Seriously, I think it's a great idea if they can manage to build out the network to accommodate this and still stay solvent. I want to see where they promised they would build a local Supercharger network for those who do not have access to home charging. I'm not talking about destination chargers (which they are building in partnership with several New York City parking garages to encourage NYC dwellers to buy Teslas), but actual free-to-use Supercharger stations intended to accommodate local demand in a major city. Where has Tesla announced or promised that Supercharger access is fine for local users to use as often as they like?

When someone goes to buy a Chevrolet Malibu, no one at the 'independent franchised dealership' gives one whit whether they intend to use it for a daily commute, as a door-to-door sales vehicle, for taxi services, or as a friggin' potted plant.

The difference of course being that the dealership isn't paying for the Malibu owner to fill up his gas tank free for life. And nor should Tesla.

An Uber driver using Superchargers exclusively to charge his car is violating the spirit of the law, if not the letter of it. And Tesla should absolutely clarify the user agreement, if they have not done so already to prevent this from happening. Otherwise, get ready for Supercharger-mageddon.

Similarly, Tesla Motors does not give a flaming fig fart how you intend to use a car after you buy it. They have expressed their hope: 1) That most people will charge at home if they can, and use the Supercharger network as they will on road trips. 2) That if people who are low on a charge must use one near their homes, that they do so responsibly, and be aware of and considerate of the charging needs of others.

And yet you say that someone - not just anyone, but a professional driver - is welcome to use Superchargers as his sole source of charging, and Tesla should have no recourse? At a cost (to Tesla) of several thousand dollars per year in electricity? This is why we can't have nice things. Because inevitably people will come up with ways to game the system and ruin it for the rest of us.

I remember Elon Musk saying something to the effect, "I don't care. Use it as often as you like. Don't worry about it." Of course, the question he was answering was a bit different, relative to whether or not constant or repeated use of the Supercharger network might result in damage to the battery pack... But I think it applies to your concerns as well.

It doesn't. At all. Musk was saying that there is no risk to battery longevity by being using a Supercharger to charge your battery as often as you need to. And the Netherlands battery study does bear that out. Tesla's thermal management and intelligent charging technology prevents the battery from overheating during charging (including Supercharging), so it minimizes (or eliminates) any potential damage to the cells. You can use Superchargers as often as you want. This doesn't mean you should.

Once again, there are numerous types of 'business' that rely upon using a car, just as there are many that rely upon using a telephone. Who's to say that someone doing real estate sales is more legitimately allowed to regularly use Superchargers than someone doing Uber/Lyft/taxi services?

A realtor relying solely on Superchargers to keep his Tesla charged up would be abusing the system just as much as the Uber driver is, but probably with less mileage, hence fewer charges. Superchargers are for long distance travel, and the occasional local top-off. Period. If Tesla can afford to build out a Supercharger network that is robust enough to provide a primary charging source to those who have no other means, then great, but that's not what the current Supercharger network is intended for. And Tesla has made that pretty clear in earnings calls, on their web site and in direct communications to their customers. I expect this will be made more formal in the future. And that's perfectly OK. As you say, "if they laid out restrictions from the outset." They will. Before they sell the first Model 3, and probably much sooner than that. I'll bet you a pizza and a six pack of your favorite beer. It will be real pizza (from New York!). I will have it delivered.

Someone driving a Prius for their daily commute across I-10 is unlikely to visit a gas station as often as someone who uses a Ferrari 488 GTB as a daily driver on the 405 FWY. Exxon/Mobil doesn't care either way. And they never will.

Actually they probably do care (and this is why there is so much oil lobby and auto industry lobby resistance to government mandates for fuel efficiency), but Exxon/Mobile makes money either way. They make less on a Prius than on a big gas-guzzling SUV but they make money either way.

Tesla Motors already knows that there will be extremes of high use as well as extremes of minimal use for the Supercharger network. No matter your protests, very few people will even have the time to attempt to use Superchargers in a manner that could be considered 'abusive'. Their efforts will most certainly be trumped both by the grand majority of people who primarily charge at home, as well as those who simply do not drive very much at all.

I disagree. Vehemently. If the perception is that Superchargers are OK for local use, then people will use them locally; will even buy a Tesla over a Bolt or a Leaf because they're the only ones that "charge for free" and they will expect to pull into those Supercharger stations as often as they want, and use as much electricity as they want in order to get the best overall value out of their cars. My dad used to drive across town to save 1 or 2 cents a gallon on gasoline in the 70s. If Tesla Model 3 owners can pull into a local Supercharger once a week and never have to pay a few hundred $$$ (or a couple of thousand $$$) to install an HWPC or NEMA 14/50 charger at home, they're gonna do it. Or if they live in an apartment with no reasonable access to home charging, they're gonna do it.

The Supercharger network isn't currently intended for frequent local use and cannot scale to handle that without a large investment. It's not much of a problem now because there are so few Teslas on the road (particularly here on the east coast) but if you put another 100K or 200K or 500K or one million Teslas on the road, roll free Supercharger access into all of them and don't discourage (or restrict) frequent local SC usage, you will kill one of Tesla's strategic advantages: free long distance travel for life, pretty quickly.

Sure. If they laid out such restrictions from the outset. And... They haven't. Because they employ lots of really smart people. And those people do not foresee a problem.

Did not expect a problem, but have already sent out letters to frequent local Supercharger users saying, "cut it out." The real opportunity for change will come with the Model 3 as that's where the high volume is going to kick in. A.) Supercharging will be a cost-added option for the Model 3 and B.) there will be something much more formal about how Superchargers will/can be accessed even with the option being paid for. I don't see any other way that Tesla can maintain the current level of service at superchargers when there are 10X (and eventually 100X) the number of Teslas on the road.

No such 'clarification' is forthcoming, as it is not necessary at all. It doesn't matter what your 'home' address is, Tesla Motors cannot possibly know what your intention is before you charge. They may be able to determine a pattern in your charging habits. But if they suddenly cut your access, with little or no warning, that will certainly lead to legal action.

The writing is on the wall. The web site clearly states "long distance travel" and the user agreement when you buy the car will too, before long. And I'm completely OK with that. You can't buy any other EV today that offers a reasonable long distance travel solution - no matter how much you're willing to pay - and this is something worth paying for, and worth protecting.

OK, off my soapbox now. Let me know if you're interested in the pizza/beer bet.