Superchargers super-slow

[hill]

My wife enjoys the break during long trips. She also prefers to drive my Smart Electric for the school run in the morning. I get your situation is different but not everyone has your same situation...so why dissuade others from Tesla purchases if they drive long distance. That's my point... not that you don't have good personal reasons, just that people vary .......

yes people vary - & that's why a low range / low cost smart car can work for some. You know what you get based on what the seller states. Pay 6 figures for range & charge speed, then STOP getting what you PAID for ....? Bye bye. customers betrayed
.

 

[WannabeOwner]

ZERO revenue for Tesla.

Originally there was, I forget ... $20K? [EDIT: I'm sure I've remember that wrongly and got it way too high] baked into the price for unlimited supercharging. I dunno what the life of the car is, 10 years? So $2,000 p.a. I know those figures have gone this-way and that-way over time, but there is some sort of baked-in money for charging. Its not $0 in my book ...

... even the new cars are 400kWH p.a. "free", so again given 10 years life that's 4,000 kWH at $0.13, or whatever price, baked into the purchase price

My $0.02 is that the cost of free supercharging is "fine" provided that the sales line is pointing upwards - sales of an ever increasing number of new cars more than pay for Supercharging existing ones ... bit like pension contributions - until the number of young people joining the workforce starts to decline ...

... none of that is to say that some Bean-counter somewhere hasn't spotted the opportunity to save a few $M by reducing the amount that people actually use. Beats me why they would do that though? surely if it comes out that it was intentional its gotta be like shooting yourself in both feet, hasn't it?

Can't say that, here in the UK, I've noticed any slowdown, and in these discussions I don't read about people from all-parts-foreign having this problem (in particular comparing the charging rate of a site today vs. a year ago). To my mind that rules out the "let's save some $$" aspect, 'coz surely doing it worldwide would save more $$ ... but I can't think of a logical explanation for it being restricted to just some-parts-of-USA either. Freeloaders maybe ... but what is actually happening is hurting everyone, and for sure if local-charging-freeloaders ARE the enemy there are better / creative ways of targeting them specifically, rather than penalising any car in the fleet that happens to roadtrip West.

 

[WannabeOwner]

What's possibly the culprit, IMHO, is insufficient thermal management that has developed as the connectors wear and ambient temperatures fluctuate combined with the constant use of the system in some locations

If that was the issue surely Tesla could just repair them, thereby providing the original charging performance again, and then figure out a longer term proper fix. That would mean that some, at least, sites would revert to Super charging-rates and I don't remember reading that that has been noticed on sites known to be slow?

 

[sorka]

There is absolutely ZERO reason why Tesla would intentionally throttle SC performance as all that does is cause more congestion, more waiting, and more frustration... Come on people.../QUOTE]

Actually, there are all kinds of reasons why they could:

1) They might be paying a lot more for electricity during peak hours so they might be limiting the total power the site receives during those times.
2) They are using commercial rates which in a lot of areas is more expensive if you exceed a certain peak draw regardless of time or in combination with TOU.
3) This could be an early attempt at discouraging frequent use for users who could charge elsewhere like at home or work but don't because this is convenient. The problem with this theory is that it creates long lines for those that are really driving long range so there'd be no logic in punishing users who have a legitimate need to charge quickly by slowing intentionally slowing everyone down. However, if they do this enough while there aren't real waits yet, it may discourage much of the current population permanently from coming back to use the SCs if they think they will have to wait a long time when they could charge at home or work. i.e. this could be a preemptive thinning of the herd so that when the population explodes with Model 3s, the lines won't be as long as if the original population was still frequently charging because it was quick and convenient.
4) They may intentionally not be fixing the infrastructure to both save money and to support reason #3 above until the model 3 population starts exploding.

 

[jeffro01]

If that was the issue surely Tesla could just repair them, thereby providing the original charging performance again, and then figure out a longer term proper fix. That would mean that some, at least, sites would revert to Super charging-rates and I don't remember reading that that has been noticed on sites known to be slow?

That's what they've been doing and in spots where they replace the cables/connectors the issues improve for a period of time until they begin to degrade again. They're just not keeping up very well... Again, just my opinion on this, they are going to have to resort to liquid cooling of the entire infrastructure from connector to utility input in order to sustain maximum performance in all temperatures regardless of usage...

Jeff

 

[jeffro01]

The quote is all messed up in your post but to answer, I see your point... I really do. I just don't think Tesla would cut off their nose to spite their face so to speak... It seems highly unlikely to me that Tesla didn't do the math ahead of time to know what it would cost based on usage and TOU to know whether or not demand charges and such were going to be an issue...

Jeff

 

[sorka]

Originally there was, I forget ... $20K? baked into the price for unlimited supercharging. I dunno what the life of the car is, 10 years? So $2,000 p.a. I know those figures have gone this-way and that-way over time, but there is some sort of baked-in money for charging. Its not $0 in my book ...

Wait, wasn't the baked in cost already established at $2500? Isn't that what it cost to upgrade an original S60 to supercharging?

 

[WannabeOwner]

That's what they've been doing and in spots where they replace the cables/connectors the issues improve for a period of time until they begin to degrade again

Thanks for that, I'd missed that in the flow of conversation. Never enough hours in the day to keep up with all the chat here ... and also earn enough money to pay for the next model, a ride in a tunnel boring machine, plus a trip to Mars ... and beyond!!

 

[WannabeOwner]

Wait, wasn't the baked in cost already established at $2500?

I'm sure you are right, I was relying on memory, sorry about that. (In my mind there is "some" money baked into the price.)

 

[sorka]

The quote is all messed up in your post but to answer, I see your point... I really do. I just don't think Tesla would cut off their nose to spite their face so to speak... It seems highly unlikely to me that Tesla didn't do the math ahead of time to know what it would cost based on usage and TOU to know whether or not demand charges and such were going to be an issue...

Jeff

I don't think they'd have to do much calculating to see how much money they're saving by not exceeding their peak tariffs or tiers, or limiting use during high TOU.

Heck, many commercial customers have dynamic TOU where the utility will dynamically price electricity based on total demand and if Tesla is hooked into this some locations, they may be reducing total output in response to real time data.

In the early days when there weren't a lot of Teslas on the road, this woudn't have been a big deal but the cost has now become material to their earnings. Plus, in the early days, they needed to have the system working perfectly to garner as much word of mouth about the system so folks like me would tell our friends, family, and coworkers how great the system was and how you could always count on a quick charge to get to your next destination. No longer the case

 

[TexasEV]

Wait, wasn't the baked in cost already established at $2500? Isn't that what it cost to upgrade an original S60 to supercharging?

Once again, as has been cited many times in this forum, the $2000 option to enable supercharging on the early 60s (or $2500 after purchase) was said to be for the supercharging hardware and software IN THE CAR. The cost is almost as much as to enable it just for CHAdeMO. Nothing to do with the expense of the superchargers themselves.

 

[trmmcd]

While Tesla needs to publicly own up to why the problems with poor SC performance are occurring, this notion that it's being done intentionally is just well... Stupid...

There is absolutely ZERO reason why Tesla would intentionally throttle SC performance as all that does is cause more congestion, more waiting, and more frustration... Come on people...

What's possibly the culprit, IMHO, is insufficient thermal management that has developed as the connectors wear and ambient temperatures fluctuate combined with the constant use of the system in some locations. As it's been explained in other threads, and possibly in this one as I haven't read the entire 7 pages, the electronics aren't getting sufficient time to cool down between uses which is only exacerbating the issue...

I don't know remotely enough about the design/thermal management characteristics of the current system to question said design but I can reasonably deduce that an improvement in the design is necessary to allow for consistently high performance regardless of use and ambient temperatures...

Jeff

I think you are on to something here. Elon has alluded to many future improvements in super charging infrastructure at various times. I think it is likely that the existing infrastructure is not holding up well and needs to be refreshed. Rather than rush to reinstall the same technology, they are likely trying to sweat the existing assets while they are finalizing the next generation. The fact that some chargers at a given site are performing well while others are not seems to support the contention that this is not throttling.

I always pull into one of the slots closest to the amenities at a larger site - I think that is human nature - so those are likely used the most. Next time - I am going to do exactly the opposite and see how it goes.

 

[SmartElectric]

a low range / low cost smart car can work for some. Pay 6 figures for range & charge speed, then STOP getting what you PAID for ....? Bye bye. customers betrayed
.

Hill. You assume I don't own a Tesla. I do. Supercharged dozens of times.

Tesla will solve the slow charging issues. They already use powerpack systems to help smooth peak load at some California stations. As gigafactory ramps up, this may become more common.

Here in Ontario, my experience has been that I get 88kW pretty much every time at every station. That's the max of my old 2013 'A' battery pack. The times I get slower charge have obvious reasons such as cold pack or shared charging bay.

Betrayed is such an interesting word to use in a reply where you didn't even take the time to see my signature where I outline my Tesla ownership...do you make snap judgements and use CAPS words like betrayed to shout your point because you're mad or because you think we're not listening? Not really curious on the reply.

 

[jeffro01]

I don't think they'd have to do much calculating to see how much money they're saving by not exceeding their peak tariffs or tiers, or limiting use during high TOU.

Heck, many commercial customers have dynamic TOU where the utility will dynamically price electricity based on total demand and if Tesla is hooked into this some locations, they may be reducing total output in response to real time data.

In the early days when there weren't a lot of Teslas on the road, this woudn't have been a big deal but the cost has now become material to their earnings. Plus, in the early days, they needed to have the system working perfectly to garner as much word of mouth about the system so folks like me would tell our friends, family, and coworkers how great the system was and how you could always count on a quick charge to get to your next destination. No longer the case

I genuinely think you're seeing a ghost that doesn't exist. Granted, it doesn't help that Tesla hasn't been wiling to comment publicly on this issue...

Jeff

 

[YauKwan]

So I don't know if anyone else notices.

When I get a slow supercharger it ramps up to an ok speed. Maybe 70kw. Then I hear a thump in the back and it drops it immediate down to 0 kw and starts to ramp back up and repeats.

No idea what's causing it.

 

[luckyj]

I've gotten that "thump" a couple times. Pretty rare though. I pulled the plug and re-inserted and all was good for the rest of the charge.

 

[hill]

Had the thump here too. Speculated that it was related to pack thermal management, as it always seem to happen during non-ideal temps.
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[SomeJoe7777]

I took a road trip yesterday from Houston -> Fort Worth and back. Went through the Corsicana, TX supercharger on the way up, and the Waco, TX supercharger on the way back.

Corsicana didn't seem to have any issues:

Waco, on the other hand, did the exact described behavior in this thread. Initial charge rate was 115 kW, dropped within 2 minutes to 65 kW on stall 4B. I moved to stall 3B and it behaved better, although it dropped briefly by about 20 kW from what it should have been for 5 minutes or so:

I agree with others in this thread that this appears to be lack of maintenance and malfunctions. Dirty charging connectors, bad incoming power, etc. I do not at all believe this is intentional.

I reported the malfunctioning Waco SC 4B stall to Tesla Roadside Assistance, they said they would pass the info to the SC team.

 

[hill]

Hill. You assume I don't own a Tesla. I do. Supercharged dozens of times.
........snip...........
Betrayed is such an interesting word to use in a reply where you didn't even take the time to see my signature where I outline my Tesla ownership...do you make snap judgements and use CAPS words like betrayed to shout your point because you're mad or because you think we're not listening? Not really curious on the reply.

sorry, but assuming i assumed was an incorrect assumption. wow ... in fact, multiple assumptions going on there.
Btw, the fact whether one owns a tesla, was irrelevant to trying to convey that yes, tesla owners can feel betrayed if/when charging slows - either because the Chargers are volitionally throttled down or whether they are negligently throttled down due to lack of maintenance. My reply didn't even require that one understand your tesla ownership. But i did. Jeez, you post relative to smartcar ownership in multiple paragraphs, and get a reply relative to that, and that somehow means ? what. Sorry, i don't get how that wrong presumption could set someone spiralling off. But Ok ...
& then
"Not really curious "
then why comment at all. I don't get that.
Lastly, & since it appears you presumed again .... no .... caps don't necessarily attempt to convey anger. In the case above, it was to convey emphasis ... emphasis that we STOPPED being able to get as quick a charge as we PAID for. I'm sorry if you managed to somehow think that the only 2 words in caps separated from other sentences was tantamount to capitalizing the word 'betrayal' and that this would indicate anger. I ask your forgiveness for failing to articulate in a manner that should easily be understood.
Betrayal doesn't necessarily equate to anger. Betrayal is a result of experiencing (for example) hypocrisy ... as when a company says they give you value paid for ... and they don't - even if they don't via negligence - they don't. Good to hear that many haven't experienced what many others have experienced - all too often. Peace & love (whew!)
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[R Titus]

I noticed this for the first time today in Harris ranch. I've done a couple of trips up and down the coast. Always charged at top speed. Suddenly today boom empty chargers and slow (under 50) charging speed,,, I was at 18% battery when I pulled up

Something strange is afoot for sure