Supercharging free forever or not? (Out of main)

[MC3OZ]

He’s not a terrible businessman; he under estimates the greed, the selfishness, the general nastiness and evil of the human race. He gives humans the benefit of the doubt. He assumes they’ll make the right choice, do the good/ethical/moral/right/logical/sensible thing. You have a different view of people.

That’s not a character flaw, btw. For either of you.

Yes, Tesla has a proprietary connector. Did you miss the part about expecting OEM partnerships? Tesla’s connector is the best. Why wouldn’t he expect others to get on board? And he’s not like Tesla didn’t try to get everyone on board to standardize the plug; they did. I specifically remember Elon and JB talking about that back in the day.

In Europe and Australia where significant 3rd party CCS2 chargers exists Model 3/Y are CCS2 and I assume newer Model S/X will also be.
In China Tesla also supports the Chinese charging standard...
In the US there was no good option at the time Tesla developed their connector, and they have invested a lot in Superchargers...

For the Semi Tesla has worked with others to develop a fast charging standard.

If the world develops a global standard fast charging connector I assume Tesla will come on board...

My impression of the US is Electrify America is starting to roll out some fast chargers, but the Supercharger network is way more extensive. No other car maker has worked with Tesla to use Superchargers and the network isn't fully sufficient for the existing/future Tesla fleet.

So in the US the priority is Supercharger expansion..... I don't think there are a vast array of 3rd party fast chargers available..

Is the Supercharger network a competitive advantage that will drive sales? - Yes absolutely,
If a competitor held that advantage, what would they do?
Is the Supercharger network forcing other car makers to invest in fast charging? - Yes absolutely

So we could sum up this issue as "much ado about nothing"....

 

[jpsgoneev]

When I got my P85, unlimited supercharging was a $2000 addition that I chose and there's no way I used even 25% of that. For later models, the cost of unlimited supercharging was built into the purchase price of the car. That math worked fine for Model S and X, but didn't work for Model 3.

And considering Context, as someone had rightfully mentioned above, during the earlier days of Model S and the days of free-supercharging, Tesla/Elon didn’t even know if the company would survive beyond those early-S days ... to see Model X, let alone to make it to Model 3. Yup, Elon is definitely not perfect.

*My 2015 Model S does have free supercharging for life, which I appreciate very much for those longer road trips.

 

[Bet TSLA]

He did say SC would always be free, I remember him saying it and then retracting (not officially retracting) and then going on as it it was never said. Nothing new for him actually but not sure why he ever made such a promise. The 3 sunk that ship. Let's also not forget free again on the S but not transferable then not free, etc, etc.

Well, I'll believe you when you produce a primary source. Others claiming Elon said it means very little. We hear endlessly about the "promises" Elon made which turn out to be, when you actually hear his words, to be guesses about what the future might be if everything goes right.

So, no I won't believe it until I see it. I know when I got my Model S in 2014 I expected free supercharging for life because they said that's what I was getting. I remember wondering how long that would last, so I know I wasn't aware of any Elon "free forever to every Tesla ever" kind of promise. I'm pretty sure I would be aware of such a thing. But hard evidence will convince me elsewise. Your (or some publication's) unsupported assertions will not.

 

[Krugerrand]

Well, I'll believe you when you produce a primary source. Others claiming Elon said it means very little. We hear endlessly about the "promises" Elon made which turn out to be, when you actually hear his words, to be guesses about what the future might be if everything goes right.

So, no I won't believe it until I see it. I know when I got my Model S in 2014 I expected free supercharging for life because they said that's what I was getting. I remember wondering how long that would last, so I know I wasn't aware of any Elon "free forever to every Tesla ever" kind of promise. I'm pretty sure I would be aware of such a thing. But hard evidence will convince me elsewise. Your (or some publication's) unsupported assertions will not.

Google is your friend. A simple search will reveal the answer if you cared to know instead of being argumentative.

 

[S3XY]

He has though.

(warning: below is a list of actual facts, so I expect a flood of disagrees )



Like when they did the $2000 FSD sale they later admitted was a mistake, and he stated publicly anybody who paid $3000 for it would get a 1k refund.

Then later it turned out nobody who paid 3k more than within a week or 2 of the sale actually was getting a refund- the folks who did so in the previous couple years when they were explicitly told it'd never be cheaper got nothing.


Or when he promised all new cars come with all the HW needed for FSD back in 2016. Then it turned out they didn't and had to be upgraded with HW that didn't even exist when he made the original claim. See also his promise on autonomy day all new cars now come with HW3 and that didn't turn out true either.

Or going back further when he promised Supercharging is, and always will be free.

There's certainly sound economic reasons these promises ended up broken- but they are explicitly things he said publicly then failed to deliver on (broken promises, not just late ones).


That ignores the much longer list of stuff promised to a specific date that in theory could still be delivered eventually even if it's years late which is a whole different can of worms (and Elon himself has said if it's something he hasn't done before even he has no idea how long it'll really take and his dates are fundamentally nonsense guesses)



Elon is a brilliant, dynamic, exceedingly clever and innovative person who is spearheading a vastly better future.

He's not an infallible god who never gets anything wrong.

Investing like he is the second one, not the first, would not likely be the best strategy.

One thing I always see when people are arguing that Elon didn't deliver on something is the word "promise". Show me where Elon "promised" the things you say he did.

 

[Knightshade]

That wasn't what he said. He said the supercharging stations would be "free forever". Change is fine. People here claiming it never happened because they don't want to believe it are why I'm pointing this out....

...Again, the issue isn't that it changed. The issue is with the attitude found in this thread where if someone posts something that Elon said and later changed, that posted harvests the disagrees and is treated as if they are personally attacking Musk. That attitude harms the value of an investment thread where objectivity and facts are very useful.

Exactly that...and as expected, lots of disagrees and folks (incorrectly) insisting he never said anything like that. (and doubtless more from this post)

Even after someone else directly linked to the report of the interview where he said it a couple folks kept denying it.


Elon is an incredibly visionary, and incredibly optimistic person.

That he overpromises is part of that. It's a plus for the company in many ways- big promises make headlines, aggressive timelines not only make headlines they push those working for him to try and meet them.

It's a plus for his other companies too... and for the planet and the people on it in general for a better future.

But it also means sometimes he misses dates- and sometimes, far less often, he simply can't keep the promise at all.


When he doesn't it's usually for entirely legit business reasons- free supercharging forever was never gonna be a sustainable business model if the company grew as hoped.... and refunding every pre-Feb-2019 FSD buyer $1000 because they broke their pricing promise was economic suicide for the company at the time he promised to do so.


So as shareholders we're far better off he did break those promises. But it doesn't mean it never happened.

Likewise as investors it's important to retain perspective when he promises things... both on the likelihood of them happening at all (high), and how likely the thing is to happen in the timescale originally given (high OR low depending on the nature of the thing- see below)

Probably a good time to revisit Elons own quote on this topic.

People should not ascribe to malice that which can easily be explained by stupidity." (LAUGHTER) So-- so it's, like, just because I'm, like, dumb at-- at predicting dates does not mean I am untruthful. I don't know-- I-- we've-- I never made a mass-produced car. How am I supposed to know with precision when it's gonna get done?

Now sub "made a mass-produced car" with say "built a working L5 self driving system" and real FSD being years late now makes some more sense.


A great contrast here is he has built an EV factory from scratch now.

And it's looking like the 2 he's working on after that are not only going up incredibly fast to he point he may have underpromised on them producing cars, but looks like they will be even better factories than existing ones from the lessons already learned.



So, going back to the whole "as investors" thing... when he tells us "Gigaberlin will producing X cars by Y date" that's a promise we can very fairly have pretty high confidence in, and make decisions and plans based on that... likewise when he tells us in 2019 "I feel very confident predicting that there will be autonomous robotaxis from Tesla next year" we can have pretty low confidence in that one and probably NOT plan our investment ideas around that promise

 

[Knightshade]

One thing I always see when people are arguing that Elon didn't deliver on something is the word "promise". Show me where Elon "promised" the things you say he did.

How many times do you need people in here to directly quote him doing that before you believe Elons own words, specifically?

The one about the superchargers free forever promise has been posted twice in just the last couple of pages by others, with a source, for example.


Or, hell, just google the 3 specific things I cited that he promised and then broke the promise on, sources are not, remotely, hard to find on any of them since you apparently don't believe them when others provide them.

 

[Bet TSLA]

Google is your friend. A simple search will reveal the answer if you cared to know instead of being argumentative.

I notice you provide no link to a primary source. As always, the onus is upon those making the claims to provide the evidence.

 

[Knightshade]

I notice you provide no link to a primary source. As always, the onus is upon those making the claims to provide the evidence.

It's already been provided twice.

In case you're using a term without understanding it- Primary Sources are immediate, first-hand accounts of a topic, from people who had a direct connection with it.

I'm not sure which part of a link directly to the reporting by the party who interviewed Musk is not primary?

They obviously have a first hand account of the topic, with a direct connection to it, given they're directly quoting Elons answers to their questions.

Musk assures us that the company will meet its goal of 100 Supercharger stations, initially pegged for 2015, well earlier and that usage of those stations will "always be free." Always? "They will be free forever."

Not "only free for early buyers"

Not "Only until a cheaper model comes out" (in fact, in the same interview he talks about said cheaper model- what would become the Model 3 eventually)

"Free forever."

 

[S3XY]

How many times do you need people in here to directly quote him doing that before you believe Elons own words, specifically?

The one about the superchargers free forever promise has been posted twice in just the last couple of pages by others, with a source, for example.


Or, hell, just google the 3 specific things I cited that he promised and then broke the promise on, sources are not, remotely, hard to find on any of them since you apparently don't believe them when others provide them.

I guess I'll have to start reading this thread backwards since you don't seem to understand how these things work. . Besides, how was anyone harmed by this? Everyone who bought a Tesla while there was free Supercharging got free Supercharging. And they can use those, as well as other Superchargers, for free forever. That agreement is with that buyer and that car that they bought. But Tesla, by way of Elon or however they decide, can change that policy at any time. In which case future buyers do not get it. I don't see where there are any broken promises. Otherwise we'd be seeing lawsuits related to this.

 

[EVDRVN]

He’s not a terrible businessman; he under estimates the greed, the selfishness, the general nastiness and evil of the human race. He gives humans the benefit of the doubt. He assumes they’ll make the right choice, do the good/ethical/moral/right/logical/sensible thing. You have a different view of people.

That’s not a character flaw, btw. For either of you.

Yes, Tesla has a proprietary connector. Did you miss the part about expecting OEM partnerships? Tesla’s connector is the best. Why wouldn’t he expect others to get on board? And it’s not like Tesla didn’t try to get everyone on board to standardize the plug; they did. I specifically remember Elon and JB talking about that back in the day.

I know you got my sarcasm so thanks for the usual pat on the back. You don't need speak for what I think because you don't know me but I do have common sense like most out there. I do know about those partnerships I was working in that space for years and have done work for Tesla in the charging space. Yes it is the best connector but why would any of the car makers adopt it that is not how they operate in this space but they should. Elon however does give humans the benefit of the doubt I agree, he assumes they won't care about the finish quality of cars or even basic customer service Anyone with the most basic sales skills knows when you give something away people may abuse it but guess who promoted and marketed that abuse? Tesla sales people . They proactively told people not to worry if they have no way to charge at home as they could use a free SC. Now this was originally about if he said SC would be free, Yes he said that and it does not matter what he thought people would do because you should plan for things like that when you make a statement, that's business 101 and Tesla used it as a sales tool to push numbers and Elon knew that he was never under any false perception. Model 3 sales ended this free picnic not some misguided and altruistic promise. Besides, the SC cost was built into the S.

One thing Tesla did do right was SC fees for going over I just wish they were higher because some people still don't care or are just "unable" to monitor their cars.

 

[dsnows]

Lifetime free supercharging for at least some cars stays with the vehicle for life of the vehicle. But I dont think that there are any cars with Autopilot 2.0+ hardware have free supercharging. For many old Model S's this is a factor in keeping the resale price high.

There are not many, but there are some. HW2.0 started Oct 2016, free unlimited SCing that transfers with the car ended mid January 2017. I have a Dec 2016 build with free SCing and new FSD hardware with computer upgrade.

 

[Knightshade]

I guess I'll have to start reading this thread backwards since you don't seem to understand how these things work.

You mean people claiming no source was given because they're too lazy to scroll back 5 posts and find it? No, I know how those things work pretty well, but thanks for the added example

Besides, how was anyone harmed by this?

Solid strawman! 7/10!

The discussion was specifically spawned when someone, incorrectly, claimed that Elon always keeps his promises. Every time.

So 3 examples were given of him not keeping a promise to Tesla owners- this being one of them.

For some reason everyone ignored the other 2 (which is odd, because folks WERE actually harmed by at least one of em- the promise that "all" cars made after a certain date had specific HW and turns out they didn't- and arguably harmed by the FSD sale/lack of refund broken promise too), instead everyone just focused on this one, and factually incorrectly tried to deny it happened....possibly because it was the oldest of the broken promises and most folks weren't around when it was originally made so didn't think it happened.


When sources were provided proving it happens they began throwing up strawmen to keep stanning for Elon as you did.


Nobody's "attacking" Elon here- they're pointing out he's a human being who sometimes gets things wrong- including sometimes promising things the company ends up unable or unwilling to deliver.

Because that's a repeatedly document-able fact.

You're welcome to be mad at the facts, but it doesn't stop em from being facts.

. I don't see where there are any broken promises.

Then you're not looking very hard. At least 3 different examples were provided, including sources, back in the original thread.

And you can easily google even more sources for them if you dislike the provided ones.

.
Otherwise we'd be seeing lawsuits related to this.

"breaking a promise" isn't actually illegal in every context- so no, we wouldn't see that in many contexts- like this one.

If I promise to come help you move on Saturday, then I don't show up, you have no basis for a lawsuit- but I still broke a promise, didn't I?



There WAS a lawsuit over the HW2/AP2 transition, which Tesla ended up settling and having to make payments to impacted owners though. Do you need a source that THAT happened too?