Tax Bill and EV Tax Credit Discussion

[geneclean55]

These are the only amendments pertaining to mcconnell's original amendment that seem to have been agreed to.

 

[WileyTheMan]

...while Tesla's success hinges on EV tax credit and Model 3 for 2018.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that. To hinge your success on a tax credit which can be repealed at any time would have been a poor business decision. The whole point of Tesla is to make enticing vehicles that happened to be electric. This means price point as well as the car itself. The tax credit was just icing on the top for Tesla.

 

[turnbowm]

I'm not sure I get your point. Other car manufacture sell millions of cars a year who can post a profit while Tesla is burning cash through expansion. This will hurt EV adoption for Tesla more than other manufactures. The big names like Toyota, Ford, Honda, Nissan etc can afford to slowly ramp up production while Tesla's success hinges on EV tax credit and Model 3 for 2018.

The Model 3 is most definitely a "make or break" situation for Tesla but I don't think their success hinges on the tax credit. For someone buying a $100,000 model S or X, the $7500 tax credit is a minor consideration.

 

[KeithE]

So sad to think our government can’t do the right thing and support innovation and green energy. This is partisan politics at its worst. There is FINALLY some progress in E.V. technology and adoption that could lead a healthier economic revolution yet these idiots in congress cant put practical pro environmental policy ahead of their pocket books.

yup, its toast guys

SA 1746. Mr. FLAKE submitted an amendment intended to be proposed to
amendment SA 1618 proposed by Mr. McConnell (for Mr. Hatch (for himself
and Ms. Murkowski)) to the bill H.R. 1, to provide for reconciliation
pursuant to titles II and V of the concurrent resolution on the budget
for fiscal year 2018; which was ordered to lie on the table; as
follows:

At the appropriate place, insert the following:

SEC. ____. TERMINATION OF CREDIT FOR NEW QUALIFIED PLUG-IN
ELECTRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLES.

(a) In General.--Subpart B of part IV of subchapter A of
chapter 1 is amended by striking section 30D (and by striking
the item relating to such section in the table of sections
for such subpart).
(b) Conforming Amendments.--
(1) Section 38(b) is amended by striking paragraph (35).
(2) Section 1016(a) is amended by striking paragraph (37).
(3) Section 6501(m) is amended by striking ``30D(e)(4),''.
(c) Effective Date.--The amendments made by this section
shall apply to vehicles placed in service in taxable years
beginning after December 31, 2017.

 

[geneclean55]

at S.Amdt.1618 to H.R.1 - 115th Congress (2017-2018) - Amendment Text

the 1618 substitute bill itself doesn't have the 30D repeal, but the list of passed additional amendments to 1618 refers to 1746 which has the 30D repeal language. . .

Nope. They were proposed amendments. Many of which came from democratic senators. Even some proposed by republican senators were considered "out of order" and rejected. Go through that list yourself. We are looking for the agreed to amendments.

What we need to see is the "engrossed senate tax bill" that has the final language of the senate tax bill after the vote late last night.
This document may not even be publicly available yet.

 

[SeaDoc]

After yesterday's vote by the Senate, I have become a clean air liberal, who will continue to do everything in my power to pursue clean energies as well as do everything in my power to get every right-wing loonie tune out of Congress and the White House. It has become my life's goal as I drive from SuperCharger to SuperCharger, and hope to meet other Tesla owners with similar goals... I bet Elon's glad he dumped working with Trump... Good Riddance, I say...

 

[Esme Es Mejor]

I ain’t even mad.

It’s terrible policy— phasing out the end of the credit over 2-3 years, and pairing it with the elimination of fossil fuel subsidies would have been good policy— but governments rarely make good policy.

The saving grace is that this really won’t slow down Tesla or EVs or sustainable transportation. That growth will be concentrated in Europe and Asia (and in US trucking) before making its way to the US. But these politicians aren’t stopping that growth— they’re just moving it to more thoughtful locations.

 

[mtndrew1]

It’s terrible policy— phasing out the end of the credit over 2-3 years, and pairing it with the elimination of fossil fuel subsidies would have been good policy

The thing as implemented by the Bush Administration already had a built-in sunset on it. 200k cars per manufacturer then it goes away. It wasn’t some open-ended tax credit.

 

[bhzmark]

Nope. They were proposed amendments. Many of which came from democratic senators. Even some proposed by republican senators were considered "out of order" and rejected. Go through that list yourself. We are looking for the agreed to amendments.

What we need to see is the "engrossed senate tax bill" that has the final language of the senate tax bill after the vote late last night.
This document may not even be publicly available yet.

hmm. I hope you are right. I read "Amendments to This Amendment" to be those amendments that actually did amend because they passed. but maybe not. If those are just all the amendments proposed, whether they passed or not, then we still don't know for sure.

edit to add: it looks 1806 was submitted by Kamala Harris, and without looking to see what it was, I doubt it was agreed to. So if that list isn't the list of amendments that actually passed, then were the F is it?

 

[deonb]

I ain’t even mad.

It’s terrible policy— phasing out the end of the credit over 2-3 years, and pairing it with the elimination of fossil fuel subsidies would have been good policy— but governments rarely make good policy.

The saving grace is that this really won’t slow down Tesla or EVs or sustainable transportation. That growth will be concentrated in Europe and Asia (and in US trucking) before making its way to the US. But these politicians aren’t stopping that growth— they’re just moving it to more thoughtful locations.

Me neither. EV's are here to stay. Enough other countries have passed laws that effectively mandate EV's.

It's just that the people in those countries will be driving cars called BYD or Kandi instead of cars called FORD or GM.

And instead of being able to tax the industry on trillions of yummy foreign-earned dollars on the cars they would have exported in the future, they get to save a couple of billion now. Woo-hoo!

C'est la vie.

 

[Esme Es Mejor]

The thing as implemented by the Bush Administration already had a built-in sunset on it. 200k cars per manufacturer then it goes away. It wasn’t some open-ended tax credit.

I know, but that was a really dumb way to sunset it— incentivizes a slow rollout, since latecomers end up with a competitive advantage over early movers on EV. Bad policy.

Phasing it out on a time table (2-3 years), rather than sales numbers, incentivizes auto makers to get EVs on the market as soon as possible & doesn’t give advantages to slow-moving automakers. Good policy.

Of course, Congress chose the worst of all possible choices.

 

[Esme Es Mejor]

It's just that the people in those countries will be driving cars called BYD or Kandi instead of cars called FORD or GM.

True. But mainly they’ll be driving Teslas instead of Ford or GM. Maybe my optimism is crazy, but I believe Tesla is more powerful than Congress.

 

[bhzmark]

This now takes me full circle -- I don't think the Senate bill repealed the EV tax credit. Flake's 1746 amendment didn't pass. and the repeal wasn't in the substitute bill 1618 which did pass, and we don't know the repeal to be in any other amendment that did actually pass.

were the F is it?

I think which amendments were agreed to is found at this page which shows amendments that passed, ruled out of order, or lay still born.

1746 seems to be in the still born category: no "Latest action" showing that it passed:

@ohmman I move to change the thread title

edit to add: this analysis agrees: Federal EV tax credit appears to have been left intact and unchanged in the Senate's tax bill. • r/teslamotors

 

[turnbowm]

True. But mainly they’ll be driving Teslas instead of Ford or GM. Maybe my optimism is crazy, but I believe Tesla is more powerful than Congress.

Tesla is certainly higher in approval rating.

 

[VT_EE]

Elimination of the tax credit will have a telling effect on the PHEV/EV market. I'm sure that Tesla is celebrating, since this will eliminate a net cost advantage that competitors would have enjoyed downstream.

I completely agree. Tesla is the winner here as the competition will have a much harder time competing. Telsa was about to be at a competitive disadvantage. No longer. Sorry VW.

 

[svp6]

The Model 3 is most definitely a "make or break" situation for Tesla but I don't think their success hinges on the tax credit. For someone buying a $100,000 model S or X, the $7500 tax credit is a minor consideration.

But for those buying the Model 3 it does. 7500 is a 15% discount on the first production LR model - or if you want, the way it gets to similar price with BMW 3 series. I will consider other cars without the incentives.

 

[dhrivnak]

But for those buying the Model 3 it does. 7500 is a 15% discount on the first production LR model - or if you want, the way it gets to similar price with BMW 3 series. I will consider other cars without the incentives.

Unfortunate but that is your loss.

 

[svp6]

I completely agree. Tesla is the winner here as the competition will have a much harder time competing. Telsa was about to be at a competitive disadvantage. No longer. Sorry VW.

It is not only about competing with other electric cars. It is about competing with plug-in EVs. I can drive electric (in a grandmotherly kind of way) and hardly ever use gasoline in many offers today (BMW iPerformance series, MB C350e etc etc). Too bad pure EVs will be hit by this change. And talk about lack of vision to take world leadership in the electric revolution.......

 

[svp6]

Unfortunate but that is your loss.

Yes, it is; I imagine others will have a similar loss. Too bad that our leaders fail to take real opportunities.

 

[SMAlset]

To me if you wanted to continue to improve air quality and cut expenditures, continue the EV credit but only for Zero emmision vehicles, dump the plug-in credit on those "compliance" vehicles. For the vast majority of those miles able to be driven on those cars, they still put out more carbon emissions than not.