Tesla Begrudgingly “Recalls” FSD Beta for NHTSA

I'm sure this will be a sticky on all of the vehicle forums shortly:

NHTSA Recalls Every Tesla Equipped With 'Full Self-Driving Beta' Over Crash Risks

The safety agency is requiring a software update to Tesla Model S, Model X, Model 3 and Model Y vehicles, saying FSD Beta "may allow the vehicle to act unsafe."

jalopnik.com

(moderator note: related threads here…)
FSD Recall? in Software
Recall FUD in Uk

"Full Self Driving Tesla" by rulenumberone2 is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[PVia]

Last I heard the California bridge crash was confirmed to be FSDb. The same thing could happen on a freeway overpass/underpass and a few other ways we probably haven't considered.

It has NOT been determined if FSDb was engaged at the time of the crash.
There are many headlines stating so, but it was based on the driver's statement, which may or may not be true.
There has been no official finding from NHTSA and probably won't be for several years.
An aside...there was a terrible fiery crash of a Tesla in Palm Springs a few years ago, with similar headlines.
The Tesla was waiting at a red light and was rear ended at high speed.

 

[PVia]

The model S driver states FSD was engaged - check.

Or the driver is lying to save his ass.
Remember the Apple engineer who fatally crashed into the gore section of an exit ramp?
He was playing a game on his phone at the time of the impact...

 

[Dan D.]

Recall applies to all FSDb in Canada also.

Transport Canada

Transport Canada Recall # 2023-063
Recall Date2023-02-14
Last Updated2023-02-17
Notification TypeSafety Mfr
SystemAccessories
Issued byTESLA
Manufacturer Recall NumberSB-23-00-001
Units Affected The number of vehicles or components affected by the recall.20,667
CategoryCar, SUV
Recall Details

Issue:
In certain traffic situations, when the FSD Beta advanced driver assistance feature is engaged, the vehicle may perform maneuvers that break certain traffic laws, if the driver doesn't intervene and take control.
Note: This recall only affects vehicles equipped with the FSD Beta feature.

Safety Risk:
Certain maneuvers performed by the FSD Beta advanced driver assistance feature may break traffic laws. This could increase the risk of a crash if the driver doesn't intervene.

Corrective Actions:
Tesla will notify owners by email and supply an over-the-air software update to improve how the FSD Beta feature maneuvers the vehicle in certain traffic situations. Tesla reminds that FSD Beta is only an advanced driver assistance feature, and the driver must pay attention and be ready to take control at all times when the feature is engaged.

 

[dgatwood]

@dgatwood

The car actually does know what time it is, and what day it is.

The problem with those signs isn't knowing what time of day it is. The problem is:

• Is school in session that day? Is it a teacher in-service day, a holiday, spring break, fall break, summer break, Thanksgiving or Christmas break, etc.?
• Do the cameras provide enough resolution to reliably read the small text on the signs every time at whatever angle it happens to be at when the car sees the sign?
• Is the font used for the sign one that the text recognition can reliably read?
• Is there other text that has to be understood by the car to know what the numbers mean (e.g. No parking from 6-11 A.M. on the first Tuesday of each month)?

I've done a little bit of work with computer vision on a much simpler level, involving reading text literally drawn on the screen of a cell phone using screenshots, and even with that level of consistency, it can misread text periodically — particularly small text or when the background isn't completely clean.

Given that we still haven't reached a point where Tesla cars can reliably tell the difference between truck speed limits and car speed limits because of how many different ways those signs are designed, I'd guess we're many, many years (and maybe decades) away from the level of conversational semantic text interpretation required to read and interpret thousands of slightly different conditional speed limit and parking signs in real time, at least within the resource constraints of a computer system that can realistically fit inside a moving vehicle.

Add to that the problem of knowing whether it is actually a school day or not (which means some kind of Internet query against the school system's website, coupled with a level of text comprehension bordering on AGI), and at least when it comes to a general solution, the problem is likely intractable.

So the question is do you want to wait two decades for this to maybe work generally, or do you want to put in a big "Speed Limit 15 When Flashing" sign that computer vision can plausibly recognize and interpret correctly 100% of the time with today's technology?

 

[Dan D.]

I'm fuzzy on what this recall actually means Tesla to do. It appears they can't activate any new FSDb accounts, and are supposed to mail letters by mid April. Obviously they are supposed to address the recall but there's no given deadline and it doesn't seem to say they should deactivate FSDb for the time being.

Tesla only admits the update they "expect to deploy in the coming weeks, will improve how FSD Beta negotiates certain driving maneuvers during the conditions described above", which has no promised deadline and no guarantee better than "improve" FSDb.

Sounds more or less like exactly what they have already been doing... dribbling out kind of improvements.

Not really enforcement of anything, just they can't activate(sell?) any new FSDb, unless I'm missing something, or there's more to come.




Tesla will deploy an over-the-air (“OTA”) software update at no cost to the customer. The OTA update, which we expect to deploy in the coming weeks, will improve how FSD Beta negotiates certain driving maneuvers during the conditions described above.
...
The remedy OTA software update will improve how FSD Beta negotiates certain driving maneuvers during the conditions described above, whereas a software release without the remedy does not contain the improvements.

 

[dachshund]

The problem with those signs isn't knowing what time of day it is. The problem is:

• Is school in session that day? Is it a teacher in-service day, a holiday, spring break, fall break, summer break, Thanksgiving or Christmas break, etc.?
• Do the cameras provide enough resolution to reliably read the small text on the signs every time at whatever angle it happens to be at when the car sees the sign?
• Is the font used for the sign one that the text recognition can reliably read?
• Is there other text that has to be understood by the car to know what the numbers mean (e.g. No parking from 6-11 A.M. on the first Tuesday of each month)?

Assuming map data is being used, maybe add a school zone?
The idea or reading text on signs seems fraught. Ditto relying on flashing lights, which might occur elsewhere.

(Then there's the driver, who should be able to tell when a school is in session and when to turn off FSD. But I digress.)

 

[BritneySpears]

Last I heard the California bridge crash was confirmed to be FSDb. The same thing could happen on a freeway overpass/underpass and a few other ways we probably haven't considered.

“Last I heard” reminds me of the story peddled by Fox News and eventually politicians about wokeness or something and kids pretending to be cats at school and urinating or dedicating in cat litter in the classroom. The story was completely fabricated by someone else prior as an experiment and it worked.

 

[DarkForest]

Keep in mind that Tesla needs FSD to make mistakes in order to learn from them. Having highly accurate map data would just prevent the NN from learning how to deal without it.

As long as FSD is in beta (thus requiring L2 driver attention) there is no benefit to Tesla in adding better sensors, accurate maps, or other crutches.

Quite the opposite, actually. FSD benefits from trying to predict what it thinks it should do and having a trusted source of data let it know when it’s wrong. That kind of feedback is how the NNs learn.

Right now, FSD is always running, even when it’s not active, to see if the human driver disagrees with what it would have done. At the last Tesla Autonomy Day, they mentioned that one particular trigger for feedback was when FSD would have braked but the human driver maintained speed instead. That’s why we’ve been experiencing less phantom braking over time.

 

[CyberGus]

That is a nearly unsolvable problem. How do you handle signs that say "Speed limit when children are present"? Nope. Not going to happen any time soon.

“We turn the impossible into the late.” - Elon Musk

 

[EVNow]

Last I heard the California bridge crash was confirmed to be FSDb.

Link ?

 

[CyberGus]

Last I heard the California bridge crash was confirmed to be FSDb.

Confirmation requires 51% of TMC membership approval.

 

[JulienW]

Confirmation requires 51% of TMC membership approval.

Correction: Confirmation only requires TCM members with confirmation bias.

 

[toadislost]

So it is confirmed that they will be taking out fsd away?!

 

[JulienW]

So it is confirmed that they will be taking out fsd away?!

Just read this post I made yesterday.

Tesla Begrudgingly “Recalls” FSD Beta for NHTSA

I'm sure this will be a sticky on all of the vehicle forums shortly: https://jalopnik.com/nhtsa-recalls-every-tesla-equipped-with-full-self-driv-1850123182 (moderator note: related threads here…) FSD Recall? in Software Recall FUD in Uk "Full Self Driving Tesla" by rulenumberone2 is licensed...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[toadislost]

This is very disappointing, how can the NHTSA get away with removing an option from our cars that we paid thousands for?!
Thank you by the way @JulienW

 

[JulienW]

This is very disappointing, how can the NHTSA get away with removing an option from our cars that we paid thousands for?!
Thank you by the way @JulienW

What option are you referring to?

 

[toadislost]

What option are you referring to?

The FSD option

 

[JulienW]

The FSD option

Please cite ANY evidence you have that the NHTSA can or intendeds to remove the FSD Capability package or even the L2 FSD Beta driving system?

 

[toadislost]

Sorry, I misunderstood your post from the other day. I re-read it and now understand

 

[stopcrazypp]

Link ?

Already discussed here. There is no link, he was referring to reports that incorrectly assumed the car had FSD Beta on, when the NHTSA report referenced applies even if TACC was on within 30 seconds of the crash. There have been no further reports so still waiting for more news on that front.

Tesla Begrudgingly “Recalls” FSD Beta for NHTSA

I'm sure this will be a sticky on all of the vehicle forums shortly: https://jalopnik.com/nhtsa-recalls-every-tesla-equipped-with-full-self-driv-1850123182 (moderator note: related threads here…) FSD Recall? in Software Recall FUD in Uk "Full Self Driving Tesla" by rulenumberone2 is licensed...

teslamotorsclub.com