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I partly agree, but I have to partly disagree...

To make clear what I am thinking of - let's look at GM and Bolt. A year ago forums and media was speculating on how many Bolts GM would produce this first year. Elon nailed it as he knew GM's "why".

So if the "why" is just PR to get over the diesel-gate, then they will drag their feet as slow as they can, and probably not reach that 2.5M goal they are claiming. But if they really have "seen the light" and understand why it is urgent to replace ICE's with BEV's they may move as fast as they can, and may even go beyond their stated goal.

So "WHY" does matter.

....

And btw: I see some mentions about the VAG "GF" here? Is that not just a battery*pack* factory and not a battery*cell* factory? Or have they came with some announcement that I have missed?

The why doesn't matter.

Either they spend the money to have capacity for 2.5M BEVs or not

We have known all along Bolt is a compliance play.Not only to meet CARB ZEV mandate but the average carbon emissions in Europe for Opel/Vauxhall. GM didn't invest for mass production. GM didn't invest in manufacturing facilities for 100s of Ks of Bolt powertrains. Instead GM outsourced to LG for tens of thousands of Bolt drivetrains.

Elon's insight was calling BS on GM spokesman saying they had capacity for 50k Bolts maybe 60k. Elon said they would sell no more than 25k in the US because that is all they needed for CARB/CAFE compliance. But we already knew they would not sell in Malibu or Cruz numbers.

So far VW Group has authorized spending the money on BEV platforms and battery pack assembly.


..... As to the "VW GF". There isn't one so far.

North Volt, a Swedish startup that wants to build a 32 GWh GF in Sweden, is led by two ex-Tesla execs. They need ~100M euros for a pilot plant. VW Group, through its trucking subsidiary Scania,is investing 10m euros.

VW Group also put out a tender for Cobalt. They wanted guaranteed supply below market prices without guaranteeing purchase. They found no takers among the mining companies. Presumably they are thinking about their own GF if they are having discussions with mining companies about cobalt since you don't need cobalt for battery pack assembly but for battery cell manufacturing.

Like I said when Toyota built the first Prius it was a compliance play. They had no intention of selling 6M in 20 years.
 
Either they spend the money to have capacity for 2.5M BEVs or not
Either they spend the money to do just what they need to get the public forget the diesel-gate or they spend the money to help the transition from ICE to BEV. Yes, the "why" is important. But yes, it is better that they make some BEV's for whatever reason then none, but more is better then less....


We have known all along Bolt is a compliance play.
That was the topic for a lot of debates one year ago. Yes, today there is no more doubt about it. But yes, no one was talking about that it could "sell in Malibu or Cruz numbers." The questions was as you said from about 25k and up to about 60k. And knowing "why" helped Elon to "calling BS on GM spokesman".

VW Group, through its trucking subsidiary Scania,is investing 10m euros.
Aha, that's the part I did miss :) Being a Swedish subsidiary - earlier part of Saab - this does make sense...
 
The why matters, but public demand will tip the scales. Right now Tesla is doing well for a small automaker, but all of Tesla's production to date is less than 1% of one year's ICE production. There are a lot of enthusiasts and they drove the Model 3 pre-sales, it's still a tiny fraction of the car market, though getting closer to the tipping point.

Panic time for the established automakers will come when traditional ICE buyers will pass on buying a new ICE and will wait in line for a Model 3 rather than take what they have to offer. At that point, ICE will become an obsolescent technology people only use because there isn't enough of the new tech around.

If VW is piddling around with their own GF, dragging their feet about finishing it, they can push the pedal to the metal and get it done. That leaves them in a stronger place than most of the competition who may have some decent designs that could be put into mass production (like a version 2 Bolt platform with the drawbacks of version 1 fixed), but they won't have the batteries to mass produce them.

At that point I fully expect LG to pull a fast one on their current customers and only provide the bare minimum of cells required under their contracts while launching their own EV using their excess battery production capacity.

When film cameras began to die, a lot of players from other industries jumped into the digital world and made their own cameras. Cell phone cameras pretty much killed the snapshot camera entirely and some of those new players left the still picture market. However there still is a higher end camera market. Hasselblad, the Rolls Royce of professional cameras didn't make it.

I was recently looking for a newer Nikon DSLR to replace my 10 year old rig which was nice, but is getting too far behind the curve for what I need. I found most of the old film camera makers are hanging in there, but Sony looks to be #3 in the DSLR market. Back in the days of film, Sony may have made some still film cameras, but if they did, they were also rans in the market. Sony leveraged their strength in the electronics world to carve out a niche for themselves in the DSLR market, though the big 2 in that niche are Nikon and Canon.

LG could do the same in the EV market. They created a pretty tight relationship with GM to make the Bolt and I suspect it was so they could learn the details of making cars. They already make large appliances and just about every electrical and electronic component needed for an EV.

At that point any car company that doesn't have a large supply of batteries locked down is screwed.

I do expect VW to drag their feet until crunch time happens. I am not sure when that moment will come. It will be sort of the 100th monkey moment when enough potential car buyers realize EVs, when done right, are simply superior to ICE. It will be some point after Tesla catches up on Model 3 pre-orders and it becomes possible for anyone to order a car and get it within at least a couple of months. But it could be a couple of years beyond that.

Predicting when the tipping point happens is difficult to predict. Sometimes it's almost overnight like when music CDs came in. Everyone was expecting the much cheaper vinyl was going to be around for years to come, but it died out in less than a year. (Though made a come back as an audiophile/enthusiast thing as well as a dance club thing.)

Cars were around as an expensive hobby for decades before Henry Ford mass produced Model Ts and the tipping point happened within a year or two of the Model T's introduction. However, it took another 20 years to really push horses out of the market in the US and even longer in other places. Most people don't realize that the German army in WW II used more horse carts to move stuff around than motorized vehicles and as the war went on they became more and more dependent on horse drawn vehicles as oil got scarce.

But once the public realized what a car could do vs a horse, horse drawn transport went into terminal decline. There was little resistance because the horse drawn transport industry had no big corporations to resist the inevitable. There was no "big horse". In fact most people welcomed cars because they were declared "pollution free" (my father remembers people saying that when he was a kid in the 20s and 30s). By 1900 the largest cities in the world had a very severe horse manure problem, the ICE was the answer to one of the worst problems in urban planning. The term "tailpipe emissions" originally referred to horses.

I also heard a little nugget recently that markets began to sell canned pet food in the 1920s because of the car. There were so many horses being retired from the transport industry they were looking for something to do with all the horses, so they fed them to cats and dogs. So the next time your pet is begging for you to open the bag or can of pet food, that whole ritual exists because of the car.
 
I fully expect LG to pull a fast one on their current customers and only provide the bare minimum of cells required under their contracts while launching their own EV using their excess battery production capacity.

Interesting idea and one that I do not recall having seen presented anywhere. It does seem to be well within the realm of possible. The longer the traditional automakers drag their feet in mass producing an EV the more likely it would be for this theory to materialize.

Instead of a battery manufacturer launching their own EV, would it not make more sense to target strategic partnerships or even acquisition of an EV startup?
 
The why doesn't matter.

I think it does, though.

While I get what you are saying, the reality is that we need sustained EV sales in order to reduce dependence on oil, reduce CO2, etc...

If the reasons other manufacturers are building EV's are based on external forces, then they may well revert when those forces go away. Or actively attempt to remove those forces themselves...
 
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I also heard a little nugget recently that markets began to sell canned pet food in the 1920s because of the car. There were so many horses being retired from the transport industry they were looking for something to do with all the horses, so they fed them to cats and dogs. So the next time your pet is begging for you to open the bag or can of pet food, that whole ritual exists because of the car.

Aside.

Savin' All My Love for You - a story of horse carnage in the US - Features - Horsetalk.co.nz

Apparently not. It was World War I and Hollywood.
The producer of Ken-L-Ration raised a large number of horses and had supplied them to the meet the needs of the US Army.
After the war, he switched to raising for meat and sold to the European market.
As Europe picked up its own production he looked for a market in the USA and decided that he he could sell it as dog food.
Locally successful he decided to try to expand and go national. Eventually he managed to make Ken-L-Ration successful with celebrity endorsement: Rin-Tin-Tin.

Back on topic, I shouldn't be concerned about the traditional manufacturers.

Thanks to increasing Chinese and CARB mandates manufacturers will have to make a reasonable number of BEVs, with the increase for CARB effectively reaching 5.5% long-range BEV by 2025. That percentage is large enough that manufacturers will have to make a serious effort since the cost of failure is expensive rebates. The EU's tightening efficiency standards and the CAFE standard will also put the squeeze on.
 
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The Why doesn't matter.

Only the wilfully ignorant thought the Bolt is anything more than a compliance car. Or GM fanbois. In the grand scope of things 25k units per year or 60k units per year is a compliance play for a company making 9M units per year. The debate is only how many BEVs they need to comply.

Once VW Group has production capacity to produce 2.5M BEVs governments around the world will not let VW Group retreat. New ICEv sales bans will definitely be in place in many European countries,cities and China. California and other CARB States will likely have higher and higher mandatory BEV thresholds. They can't go back even if they wanted to.

There is also likely to be pure consumer demand for the vehicles.

The Why doesn't matter.
 
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Only the wilfully ignorant thought the Bolt is anything more than a compliance car. Or GM fanbois. In the grand scope of things 25k units per year or 60k units per year is a compliance play for a company making 9M units per year.
Never the less - it was much debated a year ago... And yes, 60k is not much, but if they made this 60k the first year, they could expand from this. But now they have shown us that they only want to produce as few cars as they need of this model, and by that shown us why they made it in the first place.


Once VW Group has production capacity to produce 2.5M BEVs ...
And how do we know that this "2.5M BEVs" is not the same as GM's "60k Bolts"? And end up producing only 1M as that may be what they then find out is the minimum they have to make to confirm to demands from governments all over the world? Or they find that diesel-gate is forgotten by then? That is why it matters WHY the want to produce this BEVs. Is to a PR move? Is it just to comply to government demands? Or is it because they see that the transition to BEV is ongoing and can't be stopped - so they have move their business over from ICE as soon as possible?
 
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The Why doesn't matter.

Only the wilfully ignorant thought the Bolt is anything more than a compliance car. Or GM fanbois. In the grand scope of things 25k units per year or 60k units per year is a compliance play for a company making 9M units per year. The debate is only how many BEVs they need to comply.

Once VW Group has production capacity to produce 2.5M BEVs governments around the world will not let VW Group retreat. New ICEv sales bans will definitely be in place in many European countries,cities and China. California and other CARB States will likely have higher and higher mandatory BEV thresholds. They can't go back even if they wanted to.

There is also likely to be pure consumer demand for the vehicles.

The Why doesn't matter.

I do want to note that Chinese mandates is forcing almost all of the BEV and PHEV investments on a monetary and unit basis. There is some effect from European and US emissions/fuel economy standards, but the vast numbers come from the Chinese mandates. Almost all of the production increases announced thus far from the major automakers are only sufficient to meet the mandates in China. With that said, at some point, the vast amount of money pouring into such production will end up putting the Chinese is a very good position for the 2020's.
 
I do want to note that Chinese mandates is forcing almost all of the BEV and PHEV investments on a monetary and unit basis. There is some effect from European and US emissions/fuel economy standards, but the vast numbers come from the Chinese mandates. Almost all of the production increases announced thus far from the major automakers are only sufficient to meet the mandates in China. With that said, at some point, the vast amount of money pouring into such production will end up putting the Chinese is a very good position for the 2020's.

For clarity the China car market is about 50% bigger than the USA's total vehicle market and about 5 times the market in the ZEV states. China's car passenger car market only grew by 1.4% last year.
EU new car registrations were 15.1 million, a bit over half of China's market.

The key effect of China and the CARB ZEV credit systems is that manufacturers will emphasize BEV over PHEV due to the significantly higher number of credits per BEV compared to PHEVs. The US and EU fuel economy mandates could be met with PHEV.
 
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For clarity the China car market is about 50% bigger than the USA's total vehicle market and about 5 times the market in the ZEV states. China's car passenger car market only grew by 1.4% last year.
EU new car registrations were 15.1 million, a bit over half of China's market.

The key effect of China and the CARB ZEV credit systems is that manufacturers will emphasize BEV over PHEV due to the significantly higher number of credits per BEV compared to PHEVs. The US and EU fuel economy mandates could be met with PHEV.
50% bigger in terms of vehicles sold, but what about in relation to monetary value? If ASP in the US is $36k per vehicle, what is it in China? I would speculate it’s probably half of not lower than the US average sales price.
 
The Why doesn't matter.

Only the wilfully ignorant thought the Bolt is anything more than a compliance car. Or GM fanbois. In the grand scope of things 25k units per year or 60k units per year is a compliance play for a company making 9M units per year. The debate is only how many BEVs they need to comply.

Once VW Group has production capacity to produce 2.5M BEVs governments around the world will not let VW Group retreat. New ICEv sales bans will definitely be in place in many European countries,cities and China. California and other CARB States will likely have higher and higher mandatory BEV thresholds. They can't go back even if they wanted to.

There is also likely to be pure consumer demand for the vehicles.

The Why doesn't matter.


So you keep saying. However the catalyst that has to be sustained is demand.

As has been demonstrated, it's possible to design and mass produce something nobody wants... and if you prefer not to see the workd transitioned to BEV's it may be in your best interests to do so.
 
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50% bigger in terms of vehicles sold, but what about in relation to monetary value? If ASP in the US is $36k per vehicle, what is it in China? I would speculate it’s probably half of not lower than the US average sales price.

What matters isn't price, but margin. Foreign manufacturers can have good margins in China, as GM has with Buick.

Plus, the credit requirements aren't in USD or CNY, they're simply percentage of vehicles sold. Sell a PEV to a conquest, sell a bunch of high margin, overpriced ICEVs to maximize profit. Especially good if you can sell a long-range BEV that maximizes credits. (4 in CARB ZEV rules, 5 in China).
 
Interesting idea and one that I do not recall having seen presented anywhere. It does seem to be well within the realm of possible. The longer the traditional automakers drag their feet in mass producing an EV the more likely it would be for this theory to materialize.

Instead of a battery manufacturer launching their own EV, would it not make more sense to target strategic partnerships or even acquisition of an EV startup?

I did bring it up, I think in the Bolt thread a year or two back, but it wasn't a terribly popular idea. We'll see what happens. If I was LG I'd be thinking about it.
 
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What matters isn't price, but margin. Foreign manufacturers can have good margins in China, as GM has with Buick.

Plus, the credit requirements aren't in USD or CNY, they're simply percentage of vehicles sold. Sell a PEV to a conquest, sell a bunch of high margin, overpriced ICEVs to maximize profit. Especially good if you can sell a long-range BEV that maximizes credits. (4 in CARB ZEV rules, 5 in China).
Good points. The ZEV credits are one of the reasons why I lean against purchasing a BEV from anyone who makes fossil cars. Essentially my purchase helps sell gas guzzling SUVs. Less so if I buy a Tesla who then sells the ZEV credits. Occasionally I’m tempted to lease another Nissan Leaf due to impatience, but that should add to the arguments to dissuade me.
 
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Ok, I did mark it funny, but I will believe it when I see it when it comes to other manufacturers actually deploying a decent charging network. I can imagine that Tesla will make an adaptor to utilize these stations similar to the Chademo adaptors, if these actually get deployed in large amounts. I guess the only thing that they might do it have an authentication protocol that prevents those outside the consortium from using the chargers, in which case they could block Tesla cars... But that map shows a lot more chargers in my state of Arkansas than currently exist for Superchargers (We have one) or Chademo (also only one.)
 
Ok, I did mark it funny, but I will believe it when I see it when it comes to other manufacturers actually deploying a decent charging network. I can imagine that Tesla will make an adaptor to utilize these stations similar to the Chademo adaptors, if these actually get deployed in large amounts. I guess the only thing that they might do it have an authentication protocol that prevents those outside the consortium from using the chargers, in which case they could block Tesla cars... But that map shows a lot more chargers in my state of Arkansas than currently exist for Superchargers (We have one) or Chademo (also only one.)

Electrify America is court ordered as part of restitution for Dieselgate and must be available to all EVs. They will have CHAdeMo and CCS. Tesla already has a CHAdeMO adapter. VW Group can't squirm their way out of spending $2B on Electrify America. Legal repercussions would be worse than not spending $2B. What happens after they spend $2B is anyone's guess. Does it continue to expand with VW support? Do non Tesla automakers support Electrify America? Does it stop growing and increase prices to break even ?

European chargers must be "non discriminatory" by European Union law but will have European standard CCS. CCS explicitly does not allow adapters. Many European Tesla fans are hoping for a double port or that Tesla simply adds the two pins necessary to the Tesla charge port to be compatible. Unlike the USA, there is wide political consensus on electrifying transport that includes the center-right. Center right politicians think the global automobile business is electrifying and if their local automobile industry doesn't transition they will lose out in the global marketplace.
 
Polestar Update: Tuner Volvos to Stay; Stand-Alone Stores for EVs Won’t Be Company Owned

Wisely, Polestar is not going to try to own the retail spaces itself. Polestar COO Jonathan Goodman said current Volvo franchisees will be given the first opportunities to invest in a stand-alone Polestar store, which will eventually number 20 to 25 in the United States. Critically, the employees of these new spaces are intended to be more educators than salespeople, and they won’t be paid on commission. Polestars will likely funnel through Volvo dealerships for pre-delivery inspection before being delivered directly to a buyer’s home. Service will be scheduled via smartphone app and promises to be seamless due to the ability to use a phone as the key. The owner can grant access to the courier who will pick up the car and deliver it without ever handing over a physical key. Actual servicing will take place at Volvo dealers by Polestar-trained technicians.