Tesla BEV Competition Developments

[Knightshade]

In other news---- I get why she's doing it-- but possibly not the best choice of words for a company that had to recall every EV it had ever sold for fire risk-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546545824615829504

FWIW Earl had a pretty good reply

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546556873830060033

 

[RobStark]

This TV News reporter from Detroit is saying the goal is 25k Lyriqs this year.

 

[RobStark]

VW Group's Software Unit Delaying EVs From Audi, Porsche And Bentley

A report from Automobilwoche claims Cariad is far behind schedule in its development of new software for VW Group's upcoming models.

insideevs.com

 

[Knightshade]

This TV News reporter from Detroit is saying the goal is 25k Lyriqs this year.

GM said the same a while back.

Of course the goal was also 2 new EVs within 18 months of 2017 which didn't happen... and 20 by next year which also won't.

GM has a lot of goals, not so much on the hitting them.

 

[AndrewZ]

VW Group's Software Unit Delaying EVs From Audi, Porsche And Bentley

A report from Automobilwoche claims Cariad is far behind schedule in its development of new software for VW Group's upcoming models.

insideevs.com

This doesn't make much sense, they're delaying all these models because Level 4 ADAS software won't be ready by 2024? Were the listed models specifically built around having L4 ADAS? If so, I can only imagine they'll push those out but supplant the production with models not build around Level 4 autonomy.

Nobody will have real L4 ADAS in a consumer vehicle by 2024.

 

[Knightshade]

This doesn't make much sense, they're delaying all these models because Level 4 ADAS software won't be ready by 2024? Were the listed models specifically built around having L4 ADAS? If so, I can only imagine they'll push those out but supplant the production with models not build around Level 4 autonomy.

Nobody will have real L4 ADAS in a consumer vehicle by 2024.

Presumably they were being designed with an expensive L4 sensor suite with bunches of lidar and whatnot that they feel there'd be no point in building into cars in 2024 when they HOPE to have SW that'd make any use of it in 2027 (and probably not even then given how incompetent at SW they appear)

Tesla puts ADAS HW into all their cars because they use (relatively) cheap HW- a route few others have yet followed.

 

[Doggydogworld]

This doesn't make much sense, they're delaying all these models because Level 4 ADAS software won't be ready by 2024? Were the listed models specifically built around having L4 ADAS? If so, I can only imagine they'll push those out but supplant the production with models not build around Level 4 autonomy.

Nobody will have real L4 ADAS in a consumer vehicle by 2024.

The article is garbled. VW Group's CARIAD is an effort to copy Tesla software approach and tight integration with hardware. It's a bold, sweeping effort to replace all their existing crappy s/w instead of continually fixing it. Level 4 isn't a major part of it, and won't be for many years.

The whole CARIAD effort is far outside VW's circle of competence and throwing money at it won't help. They should have worked with Google on Android Automotive from day one. Poor software/tech is killing their sales in China and starting to hurt their reputation in Europe. I expect this to get worse.

 

[Knightshade]

Mary at it again today-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546888090123440129

her list of examples for their "All-electric commitments." includes such highlights as:

A concept car they aren't producing.
A hybrid that isn't all-electric.
An actual EV pickup she insists is the gold standard for EV pickups before they're even on sale

 

[Discoducky]

Mary at it again today-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1546888090123440129

her list of examples for their "All-electric commitments." includes such highlights as:

A concept car they aren't producing.
A hybrid that isn't all-electric.
An actual EV pickup she insists is the gold standard for EV pickups before they're even on sale

Are they going to split their company like F? I would assume that is in their future, but maybe sooner rather than later.

 

[Discoducky]

Had to laugh at the new 'super giant mega grille' (Munro video) and then laughed further at the price and specs as compared to the M3P.

M3P has 315 range vs 270
M3P 0-60 in 3.1s vs 3.7s

MSRP $65,900 (eligible for the fed tax credit though, so -$7500).

 

[RobStark]

Polestar pushes Nissan out of Top 25.

 

[heltok]

Don’t know if this is the right thread. What is the best small car EV? Something very small for cities, short drives and easy parking for my girlfriend. Like Fiat 500e, Mini Electric etc. Something that is most like a Tesla, but a lot smaller…

 

[Doggydogworld]

Don’t know if this is the right thread. What is the best small car EV? Something very small for cities, short drives and easy parking for my girlfriend. Like Fiat 500e, Mini Electric etc. Something that is most like a Tesla, but a lot smaller…

Spark EV owners absolutely love the car. I have no idea why. GM stopped production years ago and I don't know if they ever sold it in Europe. Just mentioned it to show car love can be surprising.

The Mini is considered the most fun to drive (except by the aforementioned Spark EV cultists). It's very different than 3/Y but maybe the most "like Tesla" in terms of premium pricing and exclusive features. I hear anecdotes of reliability issues, but have no data. Range is very limited, but OK for urban errand running.

The old Fiat 500e never got much love, even from the CEO (RIP), but the new one has been very well received. They didn't bring the new one to the US, so I can't say much. The other main player in that segment, the eUP/Mii/Citigo triplets, are well past their sell-by date. The Renault Twingo is based on an older ICE design, but might be worth a look. Even smaller is the the Smart EV, which always seemed expensive but is certainly easy to park.

Kia Soul EV is smallish by US standards, but probably bigger than what you want. It's supposed to be easy to park and maneuver, though, thanks to short overhangs. Owners seem to really like it, I don't remember ever hearing anything bad except the limited range of the prior version. The new 64 kWh version (again, not available in the US) solves that with 452 km WLTP.

The only good thing I ever heard about Dacia Spring is that it's cheap. Speaking of cheap, there are supposed to be small EVs coming in from China later this year. I'd look into that timing. Even if you don't like the cars themselves they should apply pricing pressure on the domestics.

 

[RobStark]

Don’t know if this is the right thread. What is the best small car EV? Something very small for cities, short drives and easy parking for my girlfriend. Like Fiat 500e, Mini Electric etc. Something that is most like a Tesla, but a lot smaller…

If you can find a screaming deal on a discontinued BMW i3 I would consider that. If not I would go with the 500e.

 

[willow_hiller]

You know GM is confident about the quality of the Cadillac Lyriq when they're paying purchasers $5,500 to sign an NDA forbidding them from speaking publicly about their experiences: General Motors offers rebate on 2023 Cadillac Lyriq if drivers sign NDA, agree to tracking

 

[RobStark]

You know GM is confident about the quality of the Cadillac Lyriq when they're paying purchasers $5,500 to sign an NDA forbidding them from speaking publicly about their experiences: General Motors offers rebate on 2023 Cadillac Lyriq if drivers sign NDA, agree to tracking

1) The NDA is not required to buy the Lyriq.

2) GM offered all of 20 such discounts to early customers in exchange for allowing GM to track them in their car. And not discuss anything with 3rd parties.

3) GM is doing this in lieu of selling the first few hundred vehicles to employees like Tesla or Rivian.

 

[momo3605]

Had to laugh at the new 'super giant mega grille' (Munro video) and then laughed further at the price and specs as compared to the M3P.

M3P has 315 range vs 270
M3P 0-60 in 3.1s vs 3.7s

View attachment 827907

MSRP $65,900 (eligible for the fed tax credit though, so -$7500).
View attachment 827908

Tesla range estimates are not realistic. Whereas bmw seems to be much closer to reality. You can see edmunds for a real range comparison. i4 m50 had more real world range than m3p in fact.

Also 0-60 on m3p is with rollout while i4 m50i is without, so the on-paper number is very close. Additionally, many videos out there showing the i4 beats m3p in drag races.

 

[willow_hiller]

GM is doing this in lieu of selling the first few hundred vehicles to employees like Tesla or Rivian.

I'm not entirely unconvinced this isn't an attempt at viral marketing. Surely it's easier just to sell early models to employees to work out quirks. But this way, any news about the Lyriq that comes out through the NDA will be a "leak." And probably elicit additional coverage.

 

[Knightshade]

Also 0-60 on m3p is with rollout while i4 m50i is without, so the on-paper number is very close. Additionally, many videos out there showing the i4 beats m3p in drag races.

I dunno about "on paper" but in the actual world the i4 is a pig heavy ICE vehicle they slapped some batteries in. It's embarrassingly got a transmission tunnel taking up interior space.

As to actual performance results-

Tested: 2022 BMW i4 M50 Is an EV M3

The new electric 4-series outruns an M3 Competition to 60 mph, and it costs less.

www.caranddriver.com

0-60: 3.3 seconds
1/4 mile: 11.7@120
(Both are without rollout)
See also:

Rolling start 5-60: 3.5 sec
30-50 mph: 1.5 sec
50-70 mph: 2.0 sec
Top Speed: 127 mph
Braking 70-0: 154 ft
Braking 100-0: 308 ft

Meanwhile...

Tested: 2019 Tesla Model 3 Performance Hits 60 in 3.1 Seconds

Tesla's smallest sedan is amusing with more power and better handling.

www.caranddriver.com

0-60: 3.1 sec
1/4 mile: 11.6@115
(both are without rollout)

Rolling start 5-60: 3.3 sec
30-50L 1.1 sec
50-70: 1.7 sec
Top speed: 162 mph
Braking 70-0: 147 ft
Braking 100-0: 296 ft

The BMW loses in every single test shown above. And note, it appears those Model 3 #s are from after the first free OTA power bump on the Model 3, but not the second one... nowadays for example the Model 3P routinely puts down 11.4s and ~118 in the 1/4 mile, with lots of measured examples on Draggy.


In full disclosure.. The BMW DIES manage to beat the Model 3 on the skid pad by 0.01g

But ultimately it's ~1000 lbs heavier- and it shows.[/QUOTE]

 

[RobStark]

I'm not entirely unconvinced this isn't an attempt at viral marketing. Surely it's easier just to sell early models to employees to work out quirks. But this way, any news about the Lyriq that comes out through the NDA will be a "leak." And probably elicit additional coverage.

GM doesn't sell direct.

Selling to employees is a bit more difficult. Although I am sure they could get friendly dealers in Detroit, Los Angeles and New York City to do as they please.

Lyriq doesn't need to generate more demand through viral marketing.

Like any decent EV there is a long waiting list right now.