Tesla coercing software updates!?!

[ucmndd]

Not if I paid $90k for a phone number to modem into.

You seem to have incorrect assumptions about what exactly it is you purchased. That’s unfortunate, but ultimately immaterial.

 

[swegman]

That has come back in the 2020.4.x versions that are required to maintain connectivity.

Tesla says my car does not qualify for 2020.4.x. They tell me the most current version for my 2013 P85 is 2019.40.2.3. So I do not get that feature back.

I should note that when I bought the car with version 7 on it, it was easy to discern the speed on the analog speedometer because the foreground and background colors were of a good contrast. Since version 9 I can only read the analog speedometer when the lights are on (during daylight, text on the instrument cluster display is now a whitish foreground on a grayish background). Also, the clock and range indicators were reduced in size (height) making it impossible for me to read now without taking off my glasses. These are just a few of many changes since I bought the car that makes it more difficult for me to operate today.

I was going to buy a new Tesla but between the UI changes that have been made over time and the batterygate snd chargegate issues I have, I decided not to.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

You seem to have incorrect assumptions about what exactly it is you purchased. That’s unfortunate, but ultimately immaterial.

Looks like he misread "modern" as "modem".

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla says my car does not qualify for 2020.4.x. They tell me the most current version for my 2013 P85 is 2019.40.2.3. So I do not get that feature back.

I wonder what is holding your car back. TeslaFi shows more than 80% of the non-AP cars have already been updated to 2020.4.1. Maybe 2019.40.2.3 is a pre-requisite for 2020.4.1?

 

[swegman]

I wonder what is holding your car back. TeslaFi shows more than 80% of the non-AP cars have already been updated to 2020.4.1. Maybe 2019.40.2.3 is a pre-requisite for 2020.4.1?

I have no idea. Then again, when I complained about the loss of range to my car, Tesla service indicated that a unique BMS firmware had been installed on my car.

 

[ElSupreme]

You seem to have incorrect assumptions about what exactly it is you purchased. That’s unfortunate, but ultimately immaterial.

I purchased a car with 265 miles of range, and 120kW charging. Tesla has updated cars like mine to take those two things away from me. So I'm not sure what you are talking about when you tell me I don't know what I bought.

Tesla priced range when I bought my car. 208 miles was $10,000 less than 265 miles. Or $175 a mile.
120kW charging was $2,000. Both were explicitly priced.

Why should they be able to take 35 miles from me (over $6000), and halve my charging rates, or cut me off from features that were sold with the car. Because that's the way I'm looking at this!

 

[ElSupreme]

I have no idea. Then again, when I complained about the loss of range to my car, Tesla service indicated that a unique BMS firmware had been installed on my car.

I'm also not eligible for the 2020.4.x software version.

 

[WarEagleX]

Complete BS, Tesla sold me a CAR! Tesla did not sell me a "computer on wheels"!




Not according to property law and my purchase agreement!



I most certainly DID BUY THOSE FEATURES. They were offered as part of the car!

Okay, then. Obviously, if property law and purchase agreements cover you as you say - then why are you wasting time posting here when you can be seeking class-action relief in court? Why hasn't ANYONE sued Tesla for this practice?

 

[swegman]

Okay, then. Obviously, if property law and purchase agreements cover you as you say - then why are you wasting time posting here when you can be seeking class-action relief in court? Why hasn't ANYONE sued Tesla for this practice?

There IS a class action lawsuit against Tesla for the voltage capping (aka batterygate) and supercharger speed reduction (aka chargegate). I am surprised you are not aware of the lawsuit.

You can read about it in this thread (which is over 560 pages long):
:Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

 

[whitex]

You seem to have incorrect assumptions about what exactly it is you purchased. That’s unfortunate, but ultimately immaterial.

Or, maybe it's your assumptions are incorrect? You seem to be equating buying a Tesla to a software subscription, except that is not how it's sold. Had Tesla said they are selling a car a subscription, maybe say "for $100K you get a pre-paid lifetime subscription to our service, with no guarantees as for what features you will be able to use, while we reserve the right to strip the subscription down to "paperweight" status any time we decide your hardware is too expensive to support", then you'd be correct. Of course, almost nobody would buy such cars knowing the manufacturer reserves the right to disable your car whenever it becomes too inconvenient to support. Of course Tesla could also make it completely Car as a Service, so charge monthly, but when the customer is no longer satisfied with the subscription they just turn the car back in and stop paying the subscription - I suspect that would be way to expensive, akin to car rental since users can cancel any time (or some pre-paid subscription term) when they decide the subscription is no longer worth the payment.

Bottom line is, Tesla is marketing their products as automobiles they sell, not a subscription, therefore your assumptions seem completely incorrect, and I guess also ultimately immaterial.

 

[ucmndd]

Or, maybe it's your assumptions are incorrect? You seem to be equating buying a Tesla to a software subscription, except that is not how it's sold. Had Tesla said they are selling a car a subscription, maybe say "for $100K you get a pre-paid lifetime subscription to our service, with no guarantees as for what features you will be able to use, while we reserve the right to strip the subscription down to "paperweight" status any time we decide your hardware is too expensive to support", then you'd be correct. Of course, almost nobody would buy such cars knowing the manufacturer reserves the right to disable your car whenever it becomes too inconvenient to support. Of course Tesla could also make it completely Car as a Service, so charge monthly, but when the customer is no longer satisfied with the subscription they just turn the car back in and stop paying the subscription - I suspect that would be way to expensive, akin to car rental since users can cancel any time (or some pre-paid subscription term) when they decide the subscription is no longer worth the payment.

Bottom line is, Tesla is marketing their products as automobiles they sell, not a subscription, therefore your assumptions seem completely incorrect, and I guess also ultimately immaterial.

In any case - you are not entitled to decide to decline software updates at any arbitrary point in your ownership and expect support and connectivity in perpetuity. It just doesn’t work that way. Either accept the updates, and the good and bad that comes with them, or accept that you might get left behind. I’m not taking a side on the whole batterygate thing - and frankly that probably needs to be (literally) litigated on its own merits. But the idea that you have the right to expect service on your terms, at any arbitrary software stopping point you may choose, for the lifetime of your vehicle, is absurd.

 

[swegman]

In any case - you are not entitled to decide to decline software updates at any arbitrary point in your ownership and expect support and connectivity in perpetuity. It just doesn’t work that way. Either accept the updates, and the good and bad that comes with them, or accept that you might get left behind. I’m not taking a side on the whole batterygate thing - and frankly that probably needs to be (literally) litigated on its own merits. But the idea that you have the right to expect service on your terms, at any arbitrary software stopping point you may choose, for the lifetime of your vehicle, is absurd.

Sorry, but there is NO requirement that owners of Classic Model S vehicles (vehicles that have no AP, adaptive cruise control, etc.) update the firmware on their cars when new versions are released in order to maintain warranty coverage, connectivity usage, app usage, etc. That requirement was not mandated by Tesla until recently, and can not legally be required of the owners that purchased cars prior to the introduction of that requirement.

We Classic owners are happy to “be left behind” as you say, as the new features that have been released over the last 1 plus years are nit applicable to the Classic cars. We just want the cars to retain all the features they had when updating the firmware, and if a Classic owner chooses nit to update the firmware, we should nit lose our internet connectivity, app access, etc.

BTW, here is another issue caused by the recent firmware updates. The MCU1 contains an eMMC chip that has a certain write life before it fails. This eMMC chip stores certain data including your seat setting, steering wheel position setting, side view mirror settings, etc. In firmware versions 7, 8 and 9, this data was written to the eMMC chip just one time until a setting (eg, steering wheel position setting) was changed. In version 10 of the firmware, Tesla changed it so that data is written to the eMMC chip each and every time your car goes into the Easy Entry/Exit settings and each and every time your car goes into your personal settings. This needlessly reduces the life of the eMMC chip. When the eMMC chip fails due to the excessive writing, the whole MCU1 has to be replaced at a cost of approximately $2,500. All because of a firmware change (made approximately 6 years after the car was first released) that causes needless writing to the eMMC chip. This is an example of Tesla degrading our Classic cars for no good reason.

 

[ucmndd]

Sorry, but there is NO requirement that owners of Classic Model S vehicles (vehicles that have no AP, adaptive cruise control, etc.) update the firmware on their cars when new versions are released in order to maintain warranty coverage, connectivity usage, app usage, etc. That requirement was not mandated by Tesla until recently, and can not legally be required of the owners that purchased cars prior to the introduction of that requirement.

I beg to differ. All we’re talking about here is connectivity, so let’s leave out the warranty discussion or anything else - and there was no guarantee that connectivity was provided in perpetuity at any point with the classic model S. If you can find something that says so I’d love to see it. When I bought in 2016 it was “4 years”.

But if you think you’ve got a case, and Tesla is obligated to provide you connectivity, on any firmware version you so desire, forever - by all means, take it to court. Let me know how that works out for ya.

 

[swegman]

I beg to differ. All we’re talking about here is connectivity, so let’s leave out the warranty discussion or anything else - and there was no guarantee that connectivity was provided in perpetuity at any point with the classic model S. If you can find something that says so I’d love to see it. When I bought in 2016 it was “4 years”.

But if you think you’ve got a case, and Tesla is obligated to provide you connectivity, on any firmware version you so desire, forever - by all means, take it to court. Let me know how that works out for ya.

When I bought my car in 2013, Tesla initially stated that the car would include connectivity services for 1 year, after which it would be a paid for service. As the 1 year period passed, Tesla announced (both on their website and in emails to the owners) that said connectivity would be provided for the life of the vehicle for no charge.

 

[verygreen]

Why should 2019.16.X.X software be insufficient for security? Which is what I am running right now?

good news. Tesla lied and 2019.16.x.x software would work mostly fine after they stop vpn service. this is because the real tideover to "hermes" happened in 2019.8.x, so the only problem you will experience is if they stop openvpn service, your car will keep tryign to reconnect wich would increase the logging and add some cpu load, but at least the functionality should be fine I believe.

You can always turn to your friendly rooting community to help you stop vpn service from draining whateevr resources once the server side dsappears.

 

[whitex]

In any case - you are not entitled to decide to decline software updates at any arbitrary point in your ownership and expect support and connectivity in perpetuity. It just doesn’t work that way. Either accept the updates, and the good and bad that comes with them, or accept that you might get left behind. I’m not taking a side on the whole batterygate thing - and frankly that probably needs to be (literally) litigated on its own merits. But the idea that you have the right to expect service on your terms, at any arbitrary software stopping point you may choose, for the lifetime of your vehicle, is absurd.

Connectivity, I agree. However:

1. One problem is Tesla has never been clear, what features are tied to connectivity. Even today, if I go to read premium connectivity description, I see I'd give up live traffic and media streaming. However, it seems by refusing updates users lose a lot more than that, and it's still not clear what else you lose when you stop updating (is supercharging considered connectivity for example).
2. Another problem is the name "Connectivity". To most people it implies internet access, so anyone who doesn't want to pay Tesla for connectivity could reasonably think that if they provide the car with WiFi hotspot, the car will have connectivity - like when you buy an iPad from AT&T, you can stop paying for cellular connectivity but that doesn't mean you iPad doesn't work anymore. They could avoid this by not calling it connectivity, but maybe "Tesla cloud services subscription" and clearly define what it provides.

What Tesla needs to do is stop hiding behind ambiguities and clearly define what people are buying, and stop trying to retroactively change specs, terms, etc. It should be very clear - here are features you are buying, they are or they are not transferable to future owners, here are vaporware features you might get but you will have to accept updates with any drawbacks if you want them, here is what you lose when you stop updating, etc. Not only that, they should clearly state what is in each update, and/or provide rollback capabilities to previous versions, so that people can decide if they are willing to give up whatever is defined as "connectivity" and stop updating at whatever version they feel is best. Think about it, this and a bunch of other threads would be moot if owners could just roll back to an earlier version, knowing of course that they might lose connectivity (which would have needed to be clearly defined at time of purchase of course).

Sadly, that's not likely to happen because Tesla business model is shipping unfinished products, and in some situations they realize after the sale that they oversold you on something, like battery capacity which can safely be used, or max safe charging speed, or horsepower the car can produce without blowing fuses or catching the battery on fire. All of this neutering should have been clearly called out as safety recalls, like they would have been in all other cars, but that would require that Tesla actually admit to what they are doing, which they don't want to do do, which is why they use OTA updates to obfuscate and/or hide any such recalls. Some of those neutering by the way are not safety related, but instead reliability related (to reduce Tesla's warranty obligations), or simply not willing to pay to maintain features because they have a new high volume car they are focusing on, and they are abandoning the lower volume cars including all the units already sold.

 

[aaron0k]

I beg to differ. All we’re talking about here is connectivity, so let’s leave out the warranty discussion or anything else

I agree that most of the "updates" I've had to endure in the last few years have been "downgrades" (v10 is caca). However, Tesla does state in their warranty that NOT applying updates can void it. I think they added in this language years after the classics were released.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf

Page 9

Voided Warranty
.... You may void this New Vehicle Warranty if you do not follow the specific instructions and recommendations regarding the use and operation of the vehicle provided in your owner documentation, including, but not limited to:

• Installing the vehicle's software updates after the notification that there is an update available;

 

[Mjsais]

I agree that most of the "updates" I've had to endure in the last few years have been "downgrades" (v10 is caca). However, Tesla does state in their warranty that NOT applying updates can void it. I think they added in this language years after the classics were released.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf

Page 9

Voided Warranty
.... You may void this New Vehicle Warranty if you do not follow the specific instructions and recommendations regarding the use and operation of the vehicle provided in your owner documentation, including, but not limited to:

• Installing the vehicle's software updates after the notification that there is an update available;

By law, the warranty that applies to your vehicle is the warranty that was available at the time of purchase. Neither Tesla nor their agents can change the terms of that warranty after the purchase. I have a paper copy of the warranty at the TOP of my model S (Aug 4, 2013) and there was no software update requirement in the document.

 

[MP3Mike]

By law, the warranty that applies to your vehicle is the warranty that was available at the time of purchase. Neither Tesla nor their agents can change the terms of that warranty after the purchase. I have a paper copy of the warranty at the TOP of my model S (Aug 4, 2013) and there was no software update requirement in the document.

Not totally true. Tesla has changed the terms of the original warranty retroactively. In 2014 they increased the warranty on the Model S drive units to match that of the battery. So they can change the warranty, but only in favor of the other party.

 

[Mjsais]

Not totally true. Tesla has changed the terms of the original warranty retroactively. In 2014 they increased the warranty on the Model S drive units to match that of the battery. So they can change the warranty, but only in favor of the other party.

You are correct. They just can’t add warranty limitations or exclusions after the fact.