clydeiii
Member
No source, just speculation. But why speculate that it's permanent?
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Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"
- Thread starter run-the-joules
- Start date
bingo. i'd be very curious how Tesla's cameras (which offer lenses/ light sensitivity well below an expensive DSLR) can "see" at night without a high beam illuminating what's ahead. are they night vision?
Yeah, maybe say it's speculation in your first post, not with such a absolute attitude.
The reason to believe it's permanent is that it's the only way cameras work. They NEED light. How would a vision only system see something a human cannot?
No, the Tesla cameras use standard cameras- they still need some sort of near-human illumination to "see". They do not have extreme low level light performance.are they night vision?
BitJam
Active Member
Many car companies have solved the auto highbeams problem without a bunch of cameras and without a NN computer. How can Tesla be struggling with this and at the same time say FSD is just around the corner? How can a vision-only system be better than vision + radar if vision-only needs the highbeams on as much as possible? Why would Tesla start delivering cars with AP nerfed and broken? Disabling AP makes cars much less safe so "an abundance of caution" cannot be the answer.
The "fail fast" approach used by SpaceX has produced spectacular results. I'm not sure this is the best approach to safety features on mass produced automobiles. Is it too much to ask to have auto-wipers, auto-highbeams, and basic cruise control that are on par with the rest of the industry? If Tesla does pull a rabbit out of their hat and fix all the problems in the coming weeks then maybe all of this will be forgotten.
The "fail fast" approach used by SpaceX has produced spectacular results. I'm not sure this is the best approach to safety features on mass produced automobiles. Is it too much to ask to have auto-wipers, auto-highbeams, and basic cruise control that are on par with the rest of the industry? If Tesla does pull a rabbit out of their hat and fix all the problems in the coming weeks then maybe all of this will be forgotten.
drove through miserable weather in Texas yesterday and the auto-wipers are either going absolutely crazy (wiping at a speed the windshield is dry and they begin to drag across dry glass) - or - they kick in way too late and not before the windshield is covered in rain. I love the car but the vision windshield camera system is nowhere near the performance of a proper rain sensor in most other vehicles...
Totally not the same reason they removed lumbar from the seats.
love my "vintage" Model 3 with leather steering wheel, lumbar support in passenger front seat, radar sensor and grocery hooks in frunk
Wait, what? They removed lumbar support from the seats? When did this happen?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
They removed it from the passenger seats of currently being delivered cars (3/Y at least) due to chip shortages.
Elon dismissed concerns by saying the logs showed it was rarely used but that explanation is intentionally dumb... with no passenger it's obviously not used, and for most folks who DO have a passenger it's most often the same passenger, who would set it initially, then leave it there... so it's not like they didn't use the support, they just didn't need to constantly adjust it (which is the only thing that would ever be logged)
FWIW- BMW allegedly also removed it from some of their cars due to the same shortages- but they INFORMED buyers and offered them a discount/credit for it, versus Tesla that didn't mention it to anybody apart from quietly removing "12 way adjustable" from the website and didn't comment until folks on Reddit noticed and began going nuts about it.
There's even solid questions out there if this can even be logged. They don't have any passenger memories and some people say the pass seat isn't even on the CAN bus.
Everyone assumes when Elon says "data shows" that he means they logged it. But with Elon, just as likely as he means he asked a few billionaires on twitter if they have ever used the passenger lumbar support on a Model Y, and when 49% of them said no, he moved to "data shows it's unused"
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Green confirming button presses for lumbar are loggable over canbus.
Doesn't change the fact "people don't CHANGE the setting often" is very very different from "people don't use the support often"
Cheburashka
Active Member
Tesla looked at the logs and the data shows that the grocery hooks weren't being used often enough to justify them!
I'm becoming more suspect of this entire vision system personally relying on just cameras. AI using cameras has come a long way the past few years..but to drive a car using that data solely? Hmmm...
I know people say radar is good, but the way it is implemented requires AI, developers and software to determine is milliseconds what to do and how to handle everything it is picking up on and "seeing". Cameras, no reason they won't have the same issue and flaws, and now it relies entirely on the one technology on the new 3/Y. Combo system, at least you have more data/info to feed to the system to make decisions.
Now you have all eggs in one basket to rely upon. And the fact they just notified NHTSA of all of this and made a quick announcement and hasn't been fully vetted and evaluated?!?! Huh???
I wonder what Waymo's view/opinion is on this one, must be a hot topic at their operation right now what Tesla is doing?? Since Waymo is on lidar/radar/camera for their technology. They clearly stated previously Tesla has an advantage under the current combo system radar/camera due to mass data collection/sampling DB with their technology compared to Waymo. Not anymore I guess?!?! Except what is already in place. Tesla also has said nothing about older cars, the FSD features and development on all prior versions with radar what will happen to that systems in the long run? Are they going to keep rolling towards city driving for all the old radar cars with FSD and have in essence two systems/paths they are supporting? Sounds like any software company what they are doing. Still support older models of hardware/software, develop for new technology on a development/future path, and eventually EOL (End of Life) the older cars with Radar in like 5-7yrs or something?!?!
Where is the promise of features/FSD and all of that if Vision is the future for older owners? So buying used could not be a very good proposition except for regular AP/basic navigation start/stop stuff. FSD was/has and will be vaporware for those older cars then? Just thinking out loud.
Or maybe when the "chip" shortage ends, will they start adding Radar back again?!?! Who knows WTF Tesla will do it seems. Hey, we have Tesla "Vision" as the future, your radar is going buh-bye...many reasons lay people...don't worry and question us, we have smarter people than you working on this...rofl. Oh wait, Vision needs Radar again!!! Starting January 1, 2022, your car will now have Radar again!!! But will charge you to retrofit Radar if you didn't get it. Trust us, your car will operate fine!!
I have a LR3 on order right now, it would come with vision obviously and not radar. I have no interest in dropping 10k for vaporware FSD that doesn't work much better than ACC/lane keep honestly in any other car. A subscription maybe at a reasonable amount...but the continued price hikes/changes in technology and behaviors on a whim is causing me to pause on this whole order I have with them now. I'm going to delay as long as possible over the coming months and see how this plays out and what further testing shows and go from there.
Why? First, because of tax credit implications possibly, second, this new method of driving/AP etc.
Lastly, I'm guessing this camera sensor/looking at your eyes in a lawyer thing. It doesn't have anything to do with phone use, it has to do with dumbasses jumping in the back seat and letting the car drive when they try to bypass/trick the AP system after enabling it. Well, can't defeat that...and the lawyers will like this feature much! Wonder how many lawsuits are pending right now against Tesla?!?!
I know people say radar is good, but the way it is implemented requires AI, developers and software to determine is milliseconds what to do and how to handle everything it is picking up on and "seeing". Cameras, no reason they won't have the same issue and flaws, and now it relies entirely on the one technology on the new 3/Y. Combo system, at least you have more data/info to feed to the system to make decisions.
Now you have all eggs in one basket to rely upon. And the fact they just notified NHTSA of all of this and made a quick announcement and hasn't been fully vetted and evaluated?!?! Huh???
I wonder what Waymo's view/opinion is on this one, must be a hot topic at their operation right now what Tesla is doing?? Since Waymo is on lidar/radar/camera for their technology. They clearly stated previously Tesla has an advantage under the current combo system radar/camera due to mass data collection/sampling DB with their technology compared to Waymo. Not anymore I guess?!?! Except what is already in place. Tesla also has said nothing about older cars, the FSD features and development on all prior versions with radar what will happen to that systems in the long run? Are they going to keep rolling towards city driving for all the old radar cars with FSD and have in essence two systems/paths they are supporting? Sounds like any software company what they are doing. Still support older models of hardware/software, develop for new technology on a development/future path, and eventually EOL (End of Life) the older cars with Radar in like 5-7yrs or something?!?!
Where is the promise of features/FSD and all of that if Vision is the future for older owners? So buying used could not be a very good proposition except for regular AP/basic navigation start/stop stuff. FSD was/has and will be vaporware for those older cars then? Just thinking out loud.
Or maybe when the "chip" shortage ends, will they start adding Radar back again?!?! Who knows WTF Tesla will do it seems. Hey, we have Tesla "Vision" as the future, your radar is going buh-bye...many reasons lay people...don't worry and question us, we have smarter people than you working on this...rofl. Oh wait, Vision needs Radar again!!! Starting January 1, 2022, your car will now have Radar again!!! But will charge you to retrofit Radar if you didn't get it. Trust us, your car will operate fine!!
I have a LR3 on order right now, it would come with vision obviously and not radar. I have no interest in dropping 10k for vaporware FSD that doesn't work much better than ACC/lane keep honestly in any other car. A subscription maybe at a reasonable amount...but the continued price hikes/changes in technology and behaviors on a whim is causing me to pause on this whole order I have with them now. I'm going to delay as long as possible over the coming months and see how this plays out and what further testing shows and go from there.
Why? First, because of tax credit implications possibly, second, this new method of driving/AP etc.
Lastly, I'm guessing this camera sensor/looking at your eyes in a lawyer thing. It doesn't have anything to do with phone use, it has to do with dumbasses jumping in the back seat and letting the car drive when they try to bypass/trick the AP system after enabling it. Well, can't defeat that...and the lawyers will like this feature much! Wonder how many lawsuits are pending right now against Tesla?!?!
linux-works
Active Member
seats are often on lower b/w busses like LIN, not CAN.
I have never scanned my car, but I would check both can and lin before assuming its not there. and you'd have to scan on the actual bus that the device is on, since gateways usually filter things for segments that don't 'need' to have that info on them.
BitJam
Active Member
Just tell her Tesla has already determined the best position for everyone using neural networks?
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