Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"

[DayTrippin]

8The standard AEB, FCW, LDW tests are all done in daylight, so the high beams are irrelevant to meet any standards. If however the question is how they work at night, there is no standard test yet for that.

If any features rely on auto high beam, I think actually that serves as an incentive to improve the core issue (which is in making auto high beam work properly, not to have people be forced to disable it).

I think it is good to have all the safety features usable at all times and conditions with similar levels of effectiveness. So I would like to see testing done in at least night at a minimum. I don't want AEB*, FCW*, LDW* work great. Then the footnote * AEB, FCW, LDW all work as intended, during daylight hours, with no overcast, with a light temperature of at least 5000k, and no inclement weather. Effectiveness may be diminished if other than a bright sunny day...

As for improving the core issue, crazily flashing high beams would drive me crazy, piss off a lot of other motorists, increase road rage against Teslas (noticed on a test drive even), but I don't think it is the core issue. IF the system is currently so nerfed it can't "see" without the high beams on, or its effectiveness is so limited, I would say that is the core issue here. Then upgrade the freakin' camera system, put radar back in, or some other way to improve the performance.


Cameras are all about optics. If any of you are into photography, let's use an analogy. Suppose the Tesla Vision is using a 1/2.3 inch sensor. How is that going to perform against even a four thirds sensor or an APS-C sensor? Now let's handicap it with something like an F/5.6 lens. All you are going to get is a lot of noise at night from the sensor unless you have a lot of illumination from the headlights. We might actually be able to see better than the sensor can. I want a Tesla Vision implementation that can "see" better than me at night and adverse conditions.

Does anyone know the specs of the Tesla Vision cameras? That can answer a lot of questions for us. We may be limited by the optic and sensor capabilities more than the software.

 

[orion2001]

Complaining here does nothing however (there's some people here that are long running complainers and there is zero change visible in how Tesla does things after all these years). Not buying the vehicle does however (or at the very least postponing delivery). If Tesla still remains supply limited (which is what they are now given the rising prices), then they have no incentive to do anything different. Voting with your wallet is the only sure way for feedback (you can also complain to customer service, but doubt that really filters upward).

In the short-term, Tesla is going to be fine irrespective of what they do. There is a huge amount of consumer interest in going electric at least with one of the 2+ cars owned by a family and there simply aren't a lot of options out there yet, and the EV competition is shipping at such low volumes that it isn't really going to negatively impact Tesla at the moment. It will however be interesting to see how things play out over the next 3 - 5 years.

EV competition is going to heat up a lot more in 2022 and beyond. Not every consumer cares about 0-60mph acceleration or Tesla's minimalist UI. Many still prefer a human in the loop when it comes to service and support. Others prefer Andriod/Apple car play support rather than being beholden to Tesla's infotainment interface. There is going to be a lot more choice and options and at that point it will be a lot easier for people to vote with their wallets.

Personally, I don't think it will make a huge difference for Tesla in the near-term, but I do think they will need to rethink their current approach to customer focus/interactions and messaging. Most people tolerate it at the moment because they don't really have a lot of competitive options just yet, but not many prefer the way things are right now. They are going to need to compete on that front once there are more competitors with compelling products at competitive price points who are selling EVs at higher volumes than in 2021.

Is that video taken in the US? The radar has only been removed from cars in north america.

North America as a continent. I believe radar has also been removed from cars being delivered in Canada based on user reports I have seen on reddit.

 

[rjpjnk]

If this is not worth complaining about then what is? We're not talking about test vehicles. We're talking about production vehicles delivered to paying customers with vital safety features disabled.

That about sums it up. But how do we complain? Is there any motivation for Tesla to fix this?

 

[DayTrippin]

An interesting read about how Tesla is faring in a very active EV market and where they actually have competition.

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2021/06/ford-is-beating-tesla-in-one-of-the-most-ev-saturated-markets-in-the-world/

 

[Wheely]

An interesting read about how Tesla is faring in a very active EV market and where they actually have competition.

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2021/06/ford-is-beating-tesla-in-one-of-the-most-ev-saturated-markets-in-the-world/

I was going to mention this too. I am in Norway and have had a Model X since 2017 and have ordered a Model 3 performance. It used to mainly Tesla's, Leafs and BMW i3s all over the place but now it's ford, jaguar, audi, mercedes and VW everywhere. I can not believe how fast id3 and id4 appeared. One day I heard about them and the next the place is crawling with them. Tesla is still a major player of course but I am not alone in trying to find a way out although I still love my 2017 X with its sensible steering wheel, screen and radar. Too many silly issues and dumb decisions. The supercharger network is all that Tesla have left for me and I know I am not alone in thinking this way. Nowadays the supercharger network itself is not so important in Norway itself as the general charging infrastructure is getting really good but I like doing road trips into the rest of Europe and there you still need the supercharger network for now.

It might be telling that I only ordered the model 3 performance to tide me over until the KIA EV-6 GT is available or something similar.

 

[texas_star_TM3]

the moment Tesla transitions cars with radar built in (pre-May '21 deliveries) to TeslaVision by deactivating the radar sensor and no longer using it... that's the moment they open themselves up to class action lawsuits if TeslaVision doesn't prevent a crash the old system with radar would have prevented.

for all i know... i purchased a Model 3 *with* radar sensors advertised and boasting about the radar sensor seeing thru rain/ night etc whatnot the website stated before they made that change... software castrating a functioning radar sensor into a paper weight would be a field day for lawyers.

 

[mikes_fsd]

for all i know... i purchased a Model 3 *with* radar sensors advertised and boasting about the radar sensor seeing thru rain/ night etc whatnot the website stated before they made that change... software castrating a functioning radar sensor into a paper weight would be a field day for lawyers.

When that day comes, have at it!

I would love to know how much that "field day" will cost you in legal fees.

 

[orion2001]

An interesting read about how Tesla is faring in a very active EV market and where they actually have competition.

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2021/06/ford-is-beating-tesla-in-one-of-the-most-ev-saturated-markets-in-the-world/

I saw that article earlier but was a bit confused about no Model Y on that list. Is the Y not for sale in Norway? If that is the case, it is a bit harder to draw a clear conclusion from the statistics because a lot of folks would prefer a crossover/SUV over a sedan which appears to be what all the other cars topping that list are. That being said, I do believe that competition heating up will put some pressure on Tesla to compete in areas it has been complacent and negligent because they have been able to get away with "my way or the highway" all this while by being the dominant player with the best tech. That is going to change shortly and it will be interesting to see how things play out.

 

[Knightshade]

Does anyone know the specs of the Tesla Vision cameras? That can answer a lot of questions for us. We may be limited by the optic and sensor capabilities more than the software.

The cameras as far as anyone can tell have not changed in years (though the color filter changed in the 2.0->2.5 transition)

Camera specs are here:

AR0132AT (1/3-Inch CMOS Digital Image Sensor)

Aptina Imaging Corporation, Stock #:829321, Datasheet, equivalent, pinout, replacement, pdf, complementary.

datasheetspdf.com

 

[texas_star_TM3]

The cameras as far as anyone can tell have not changed in years (though the color filter changed in the 2.0->2.5 transition)

Camera specs are here:

AR0132AT (1/3-Inch CMOS Digital Image Sensor)

Aptina Imaging Corporation, Stock #:829321, Datasheet, equivalent, pinout, replacement, pdf, complementary.

datasheetspdf.com

1/3" CMOS sensor... iPhone 12 Pro sports a ~1/2" CMOS sensor as comparison.

 

[Knightshade]

1/3" CMOS sensor... iPhone 12 Pro sports a ~1/2" CMOS sensor as comparison.

To be fair, the AP hardware was selected somewhere in the 2015-2016 timeframe

BTW it's the same sensor Subaru is using in its vision-only eyesight system, and they picked it a lot later than Tesla did

Subaru to Utilize ON Semiconductor's AR0132AT Image Sensor for New ADAS Features - AutoVision News

Subaru to Utilize ON Semiconductor's AR0132AT Image Sensor for New ADAS Features . Read more from AutoVision News .

www.autovision-news.com

 

[DayTrippin]

The old hardware is my concern. I'd feel a lot more comfortable if they had upgraded the camera hardware and THEN dropped the radar. So we have old hardware, that wasn't high end to begin with, and now we assume through some computational magic we can make the nerfed system somewhat functional...

I just looked at the sensor specs. WTH, 720p? That is pretty terrible resolution. I am staking my life on a 720p alone?

 

[Knightshade]

The old hardware is my concern. I'd feel a lot more comfortable if they had upgraded the camera hardware and THEN dropped the radar. So we have old hardware, that wasn't high end to begin with, and now we assume through some computational magic we can make the nerfed system somewhat functional...

I just looked at the sensor specs. WTH, 720p? That is pretty terrible resolution. I am staking my life on a 720p alone?

If they'd upgraded the cameras in new cars they'd have needed to go retrofit a million plus cameras on all the older cars if they bought FSD too.

I don't know that we have evidence 720p is insufficient for what it's doing either....

It needs to know "that's a car" or "that's a dog" not "that car has 2 inch scratch near its door handle" or "that is a miniature pincher with a docked tail"

 

[DayTrippin]

Up close I would agree. But what about way down the road? Not to mention smaller sensors have a lot of issues with noise in low light. So just when you need this the most, it is going to perform the worst. More pixels (if sufficient size) will give better quality data to work with. More data, if high quality, is almost always better.

So for the resolution of the cameras, do you want to have 20/20 vision or 20/50? Especially if all you can rely on is your vision and nothing else. I would prefer to have the luxury of too much data and bin what I don't need than to try and make a decision on insufficient or poor quality data.

While 720p would not be my preference, what is for me the bigger issue is the tiny sensor size. They almost always suck in poor or low light conditions. I did keep one camera I have not because it had lot of pixels (not always good) but because the pixel themselves were bigger and my low light photos were better. I would say I want the best sensors I can have (factoring in a price/benefit ratio) if I am going to solely rely on them for input.

Here is a simple read for people who aren't camera geeks. All of it won't apply to AP but I think a lot would be relevant.

Camera Sensor Size in Photography - Does it Really Matter?

Camera sensor size explained. Learn how camera sensors work, how sensor formats affect your photos, and why sensor size matters to get high-quality shots

capturetheatlas.com

 

[gearchruncher]

I would love to know how much that "field day" will cost you in legal fees.

Very telling that you, as a staunch supporter don't say "Tesla isn't in the wrong here" or "Tesla doesn't owe you radar" or "You'll never win that" but instead "ha, it will cost you too much to sue them, so shut up."

Small claims cases are free, and Tesla is required to pay your arbitration fees. Which, in fact, lawyers have figured out how to hack and cost companies 10's of millions of dollars because the companies wanted to avoid class actions: After 75,000 Echo arbitration demands, Amazon now lets you sue it

Maybe you shouldn't be encouraging people to sue Tesla if you really believe in them, you should be explaining why people shouldn't.

 

[gearchruncher]

It needs to know "that's a car" or "that's a dog

Well, now it needs to know "that's a motorcycle I am approaching at 60 MPH" - which requires sensing 100+ meters away and estimating velocity. It's not working with a lot of pixels at this point.

 

[gearchruncher]

BTW it's the same sensor Subaru is using in its vision-only eyesight system, and they picked it a lot later than Tesla did

Subaru's new Eyesight X (already release in Japan) has added front and rear radars, and is going to 4 stereo camera pairs.

Technology of Subaru “EyeSight X” | FURUNO ITS Journal | FURUNO

FURUNO applies its sophisticated electronics, ultrasonic and computer technologies to other industrial sectors. The company's new growing businesses include, Data Management Devices for office and store automation, Avionics Equipment, Marine and Land Survey Systems and Medical Electronics Equipment.

www.furuno.com

 

[texas_star_TM3]

To be fair, the AP hardware was selected somewhere in the 2015-2016 timeframe

BTW it's the same sensor Subaru is using in its vision-only eyesight system, and they picked it a lot later than Tesla did

Subaru to Utilize ON Semiconductor's AR0132AT Image Sensor for New ADAS Features - AutoVision News

Subaru to Utilize ON Semiconductor's AR0132AT Image Sensor for New ADAS Features . Read more from AutoVision News .

www.autovision-news.com

yup. not blaming the hardware but blaming the decision to drop radar and pretending that shitty 2015 cameras are "good enough" for best in class safety features and FSD. Subaru eyesight sucked big time but at least subaru didn't pretend to do FSD and *now* Subaru is adding radar to it while Tesla is dropping radar....

 

[BitJam]

DaxM over on YouTube has been driving and reporting on Teslas for years. He recently took ownership of a radar-free TV MY. In addition to requiring auto-highbeams the TV AP also requires auto-wipers to be enabled. Dax has a photo of this message on his touchscreen. OTOH he says he normally uses auto-wipers so this is no biggie for him.

For me personally this thread has helped me process these unexpected changes. Thank you all for that. I do feel frustrated. The chief source of that frustration is I feel I don't have a lot of good alternatives so Tesla can keep squeezing me and I will take it even though I don't like it. I also wonder if it would be wiser to wait to buy a MY. If the Cybertruck is released then I imagine there will be an improvement in the range and/or price of the MY (using the battery technology in the Cybertruck) to allow it to compete. It's possible the MYs produced from now until the next generation will be relative lemons.

 

[rxlawdude]

I was going to mention this too. I am in Norway and have had a Model X since 2017 and have ordered a Model 3 performance. It used to mainly Tesla's, Leafs and BMW i3s all over the place but now it's ford, jaguar, audi, mercedes and VW everywhere. I can not believe how fast id3 and id4 appeared. One day I heard about them and the next the place is crawling with them. Tesla is still a major player of course but I am not alone in trying to find a way out although I still love my 2017 X with its sensible steering wheel, screen and radar. Too many silly issues and dumb decisions. The supercharger network is all that Tesla have left for me and I know I am not alone in thinking this way. Nowadays the supercharger network itself is not so important in Norway itself as the general charging infrastructure is getting really good but I like doing road trips into the rest of Europe and there you still need the supercharger network for now.

It might be telling that I only ordered the model 3 performance to tide me over until the KIA EV-6 GT is available or something similar.

Except the fast charging landscape is much different in EU than USA. Non-Tesla fast charging stations are comparatively rare, and many reports show that in some cases, relying on DCFC in a CCS vehicle can be dangerous to your road trip.