Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"

[ahoen117]

Again, why do you think that would matter to if the car is using EXTERNAL RADAR or not?

You again seem to be desperately trying to move goalposts to cast doubt where there isn't any to be had based on the known/raw info from the internal look at what the system is doing.

But to reiterate another point Green made recently- only no-radar-hardware cars appear to be using the internal camera for driver monitoring as of the most current software (well, and possibly those still on the months-old FSDBeta software but that's even further afield of the topic).





Weird. 5 minutes ago you cared about interior camera or not, but now you're comparing 2 cars that both have cameras.

Anyway, any difference you perceive might be attributable to .2 vs .3, though both are still using radar.

It's not attributable to the model difference since there's nothing different in the software that cares about that in terms of perception or driving. (what do you imagine even COULD do so between a 3 and a Y?)

So, we know .2 and .3 have been deployed on cars both with and without radar, correct?

Is it possible that even on the radar cars, it's using vision primarily, but tracking radar values too as a verification to make sure the new vision values match the old radar values within a certain margin of error?

I'm not a software guy, and I have no proof of any of this. Just my thoughts from the info that I've seen floating around on the forums.

 

[rxlawdude]

Again, why do you think that would matter to if the car is using EXTERNAL RADAR or not?

You again seem to be desperately trying to move goalposts to cast doubt where there isn't any to be had based on the known/raw info from the internal look at what the system is doing.

But to reiterate another point Green made recently- only no-radar-hardware cars appear to be using the internal camera for driver monitoring as of the most current software (well, and possibly those still on the months-old FSDBeta software but that's even further afield of the topic).





Weird. 5 minutes ago you cared about interior camera or not, but now you're comparing 2 cars that both have cameras.

Anyway, any difference you perceive might be attributable to .2 vs .3, though both are still using radar.

It's not attributable to the model difference since there's nothing different in the software that cares about that in terms of perception or driving. (what do you imagine even COULD do so between a 3 and a Y?)

OK, the point is that ALL conditions must be fully disclosed when one is making an assertion. How many posts to get all this information that should have simply been stated when the image was posted.

This is getting nasty (why the hostility?). Disengaging.

 

[gearchruncher]

How many posts to get all this information that should have simply been stated when the image was posted.

What image are you discussing? There are no images in this thread since you started asking for a citation from a reasonable source for the fact that 18.3 cars still use radar, and then moved to talking about how one of your cars does better on 18.3 than the other on 18.2, even though both are radar equipped cars and neither have the functional limitations that radar-less cars have.

(rxlawdude has me on ignore though, so we'll never know the answer unless someone else asks)

 

[kpedraja]

With or sans cabin camera? Which model? Let's be thorough.

Example: my M3, 2017 VIN 138X, is on 18.2. Only our MY, 2020 vin 180XX, got 18.3. Huge difference in FSD highway performance.

Is your 2017 M3 equipped with HW 2.5 or did you upgrade to HW 3? You mention FSD performance so I'm assuming you upgraded. But if not, I'd be curious how they stack up after you have software parity in both cars.

 

[rxlawdude]

Is your 2017 M3 equipped with HW 2.5 or did you upgrade to HW 3? You mention FSD performance so I'm assuming you upgraded. But if not, I'd be curious how they stack up after you have software parity in both cars.

FSD, HW3 updated, but on 18.2 vs 18.3 in the Y. And I expect when the 3 gets the 18.3, it will behave like the Y.

 

[kpedraja]

FYI, I have 18.3 on a HW3, non-FSD, non-cabin camera 2017 Model X. Does this mean I have "FSD Highway"?

I'm curious about this. I thought the first cars with HW 3 were Model 3s produced in 2019? Did you have yours retrofitted?

 

[gearchruncher]

I'm curious about this. I thought the first cars with HW 3 were Model 3s produced in 2019? Did you have yours retrofitted?

Anyone that paid for FSD so far got a HW3 upgrade, so lots of HW2 cars now have HW3.

In my case though, they just threw HW3 in the car when I did the MCU2 upgrade. Never told me, it was just there when I got the car back. I'm not unique- they started doing this to everyone about 4 months ago, FSD or not, you can see this in the threads about the MCU upgrade. It's not because MCU1 can't handle HW3 either- there are lots of HW3 cars on MCU1.

Really messes with the story that a lot of people like which is that Tesla will charge to upgrade to HW3 in order to subscribe to "FSD", or that buying "FSD" bought you the new computer. The reality is that Tesla knows they are going to need go get most cars to HW3 at no cost to the owner, and so they might as well do it when it's least expensive for them.

 

[Knightshade]

OK, the point is that ALL conditions must be fully disclosed when one is making an assertion.

Why?

The question was if cars with radar are still using radar.

They are.

All your red herrings about different models, or having an interior camera or not, have nothing whatsoever to do with that question

This is getting nasty (why the hostility?). Disengaging.

I'm sorry you find folks calling you out on your continually moving goalposts nasty.

Maybe try arguing more honestly in the future?

 

[Knightshade]

So, we know .2 and .3 have been deployed on cars both with and without radar, correct?

Yes.

Is it possible that even on the radar cars, it's using vision primarily, but tracking radar values too as a verification to make sure the new vision values match the old radar values within a certain margin of error?

I'm not a software guy, and I have no proof of any of this. Just my thoughts from the info that I've seen floating around on the forums.

If it wasn't actively using radar then it would have the same vision-only restrictions the no-physical-radar-installed cars have.

You're welcome to tweet directly to green for more details on any other ways he still sees radar inputs going to the various parts of the system though if you want more details, he responds to folks pretty often.

 

[lehmanbt]

I ordered a SR+, No FSD on April 26th. Still no VIN. Wonder which one I will get? Nothing stated in my account yet. Should I feel ripped off if I don't get Tesla vision? Thoughts anyone???

 

[Knightshade]

I ordered a SR+, No FSD on April 26th. Still no VIN. Wonder which one I will get? Nothing stated in my account yet. Should I feel ripped off if I don't get Tesla vision? Thoughts anyone???

I'm not sure I understand your question.

Tesla Vision is software. The new cars don't have any new HW- in fact they have less.

The only reason older cars aren't running vision only right now is vision only is currently inferior (thus more limitations on use compared to radar cars).

At such time it reaches parity or better (if it does) then everyone will get it.

If Tesla finds they can't do that and they really did need radar after all I'd EXPECT them to retrofit it into the cars they made without it once supply is available.

 

[rjpjnk]

The new cars don't have any new HW- in fact they have less.

Is this fact or assumption? To my knowledge no one knows for sure what Tesla changes until someone discovers it by inspecting the car or Tesla tells us.

 

[Knightshade]

Is this fact or assumption?

Fact.

If the HW was different then configs for it would appear in the firmware.

That's how many HW changes actually got found out in the past- settings for them appeared in firmware before the physical HW did on production vehicles.

Since 18.3 is running on both types of cars, and nothing in the firmware shows HW config for new sensors of any kind, we can be sure they are still using the same ones as non-radar cars.

 

[kpedraja]

Anyone that paid for FSD so far got a HW3 upgrade, so lots of HW2 cars now have HW3.

In my case though, they just threw HW3 in the car when I did the MCU2 upgrade. Never told me, it was just there when I got the car back. I'm not unique- they started doing this to everyone about 4 months ago, FSD or not, you can see this in the threads about the MCU upgrade. It's not because MCU1 can't handle HW3 either- there are lots of HW3 cars on MCU1.

Really messes with the story that a lot of people like which is that Tesla will charge to upgrade to HW3 in order to subscribe to "FSD", or that buying "FSD" bought you the new computer. The reality is that Tesla knows they are going to need go get most cars to HW3 at no cost to the owner, and so they might as well do it when it's least expensive for them.

Interesting. Though I'd be surprised if that generosity extended to pre-2019 Model 3 owners (like me) who don't opt for FSD.

 

[rjpjnk]

Fact.

If the HW was different then configs for it would appear in the firmware.

That's how many HW changes actually got found out in the past- settings for them appeared in firmware before the physical HW did on production vehicles.

Since 18.3 is running on both types of cars, and nothing in the firmware shows HW config for new sensors of any kind, we can be sure they are still using the same ones as non-radar cars.

This is an observation that supports your assumption, but that doesn't make it a fact.

The latest SW/FW could have been anticipating HW changes and be capable of operating with different sensor configurations.

I believe your assumption is correct, but I think we should resist calling these educated guesses facts until they are confirmed.

 

[gearchruncher]

Is this fact or assumption? To my knowledge no one knows for sure what Tesla changes until someone discovers it by inspecting the car or Tesla tells us.

Tesla told us. It's literally the first post in this thread.

 

[rjpjnk]

Tesla told us. It's literally the first post in this thread.

I was addressing the assertion that no new hardware was added.

I just reread the first post and I don't see any mention for or against new HW. It only addresses the fact that the radar was removed.

 

[gearchruncher]

I was addressing the assertion that no new hardware was added

What new hardware would you be theorizing? Someone can easily go look at a new car to see if a sensor you are proposing is there. So far, nobody has noticed any, so this is highly unlikely to be an optical sensor, and we know the bumper area has no new sensors under it as people have removed this to look at the missing radar and verify the mount points and wire harness are still there.

As we say, people with elevated software access can see all sorts of hardware configurations in the software, and none of them have noticed any new HW either (and they do see the radar removal configurations). For instance the radar changed from CONTINENTAL to NONE.

 

[Knightshade]

This is an observation that supports your assumption, but that doesn't make it a fact.

It does though.

The latest SW/FW could have been anticipating HW changes and be capable of operating with different sensor configurations.

If it was capable of operating with different sensors those sensors would exist in the configs in the firmware

They don't.

The vehicle config (ie what is physically in the car including purchased things) is checked against POSSIBLE configs in the software.... then the car runs the code relevant to the stuff actually in the car.

If you have a HW2.0 car you will run the code specific to those cameras. If you have a HW2.5/3 car you will run the code specific to those cameras.

If there were NEW cameras (or any new sensors) there'd be a config for it in the firmware.


This is also why the "aftermarket upgrades" available from 3rd parties for performance only offer upgrades to EXISTING models. They're just copying the config code to make the car appear to be something different to the Tesla firmware.

They can't make it run on HW that the firmware doesn't already know exists and has a config for.

 

[rjpjnk]

... As we say, people with elevated software access can see all sorts of hardware configurations in the software, and none of them have noticed any new HW either (and they do see the radar removal configurations). For instance the radar changed from CONTINENTAL to NONE.

I would consider this proof gearchruncher. Thank you for that information. That is certainly looking like fact then.

I was not aware that people with elevated SW access privileges had reported on configuration details the rest of us can not see. I would like to learn more about this. Can you post a link to such reports please?