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Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"

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Deep learning on video is nascent because of the amount of compute / data needed so I don't really think Tesla could have done this years ago and delivered it into cars.
Well part of it also just that it is a fairly new idea. I don't think it's necessarily due to hardware, because doing deep learning on video instead of individual images is actually more efficient. And in terms of data, by the time the idea was introduced, internet video sites (which are a large source of data to do research on) had been out for many years. It's just there wasn't really much of an application for it, but internet video services provided that motivation (the need to classify video so that is more easy to search or recommend to people).

And guess who wrote the paper on it for CVPR 2014?
Large-scale Video Classification with Convolutional Neural Networks (CVPR 2014)
 
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Yeah, I get that they are explaining now that their radar was causing them problems. Their radar. So get a better one. AK is making it out to be radar's fault while also saying that they could have solved the problem of radar detection glitches - but didn't want to.
Well changing the radar hardware would mean either requiring a retrofit, or those with older radar hardware having an inferior performing system. If they could get as good, if not better, results with radar completely gone, why not do that? The whole fleet would be able to benefit also, even without a hardware change (just simply a update to software).

Ok, if they think they can solve FSD with just vision, from their blind-zone limited camera suite and lack of 360 radar, I will be impressed. I'm skeptical though, without having enough sensory data their system is going to have to guess to fill in the blanks. There was a video of a user who taped over all the cameras in his Tesla, one by one, and eventually the FSD still turned left even though there was no camera that actually looked left. That's risky programming.
Obviously it's still a work in process, but it seems they still believe they can do it with vision and they are making progress toward that goal. The core principal they feel is getting vision good enough to drive by itself is necessary to achieve general FSD (goal being AI that can drive on a road that it was not pre-mapped in HD before). The other sensors can help, but in the end if you don't get vision working to that level, it still won't be able to do that (unless you meticulously mapped all road details beforehand, which Tesla feels would not be practical for them, given they don't have direct control over where their consumer vehicles drive, unlike other players that target fleets as the end users). They would rather focus their resources first on getting that critical piece working (I wouldn't write off however some of those other sensors returning as secondary aids).
 
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Yeah, I get that they are explaining now that their radar was causing them problems. Their radar. So get a better one. AK is making it out to be radar's fault while also saying that they could have solved the problem of radar detection glitches - but didn't want to.
More like they didn't want to replace 1.5 million RADAR emitters (give or take) at a thousand bucks worth of hardware and labor each. Funny how a $1.5 billion price tag encourages companies to see if there's a solution that doesn't require those sorts of expensive retrofits. :)
 
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More like they didn't want to replace 1.5 million RADAR emitters (give or take) at a thousand bucks worth of hardware and labor each. Funny how a $1.5 billion price tag encourages companies to see if there's a solution that doesn't require those sorts of expensive retrofits. :)
Isn't that exactly what you would expect a well run company to do? Why would they not try to minimize expenditures?
 
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More like they didn't want to replace 1.5 million RADAR emitters (give or take) at a thousand bucks worth of hardware and labor each. Funny how a $1.5 billion price tag encourages companies to see if there's a solution that doesn't require those sorts of expensive retrofits. :)
making everything backwards compatible is nice... but it also means we'll be stuck with crappy 2015 webcams and 720p resolution for TeslaVision forever
 
More like they didn't want to replace 1.5 million RADAR emitters (give or take) at a thousand bucks worth of hardware and labor each. Funny how a $1.5 billion price tag encourages companies to see if there's a solution that doesn't require those sorts of expensive retrofits. :)
You can pull a bumper cover and replace it in less than an hour if you have any experience. My first time took less than an hour on both a Model X and Model 3.
A Radar unit is nowhere near $900.

It's still a lot of money, but it's not $1B+.
 
I assume they cost much more than the current Continental ones.

We all know about assumptions, right?

It's a fact that taking a bumper cover off, replacing a radar unit, and putting the cover back on is an hour job. This is less than a $100 loaded cost to Tesla.
There is no way a radar unit, in 1M quantities is $900, so there is no way the replacement would cost $1K.

Automotive radar is expected to be a $10B business in 2025. The world makes 80M cars a year. Assume half have radar. That's $250 per car, and this is a very competitive business.

Even at $500 retrofit all up cost, that is still well under the $1.5B the OP suggested.
 
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We all know about assumptions, right?

It's a fact that taking a bumper cover off, replacing a radar unit, and putting the cover back on is an hour job. This is less than a $100 loaded cost to Tesla.
There is no way a radar unit, in 1M quantities is $900, so there is no way the replacement would cost $1K.

Automotive radar is expected to be a $10B business in 2025. The world makes 80M cars a year. Assume half have radar. That's $250 per car, and this is a very competitive business.

Even at $500 retrofit all up cost, that is still well under the $1.5B the OP suggested.

If you know you're going to fail you might as well fail in the cheapest possible manner.
 
We all know about assumptions, right?

It's a fact that taking a bumper cover off, replacing a radar unit, and putting the cover back on is an hour job. This is less than a $100 loaded cost to Tesla.
There is no way a radar unit, in 1M quantities is $900, so there is no way the replacement would cost $1K.

Automotive radar is expected to be a $10B business in 2025. The world makes 80M cars a year. Assume half have radar. That's $250 per car, and this is a very competitive business.

Even at $500 retrofit all up cost, that is still well under the $1.5B the OP suggested.

yeah. I don't think the OP really thought this through ... the notion "we stick with dated cameras and not upgrade the radar because it's too much $$$ and rather delete the current radar and save even more $" isn't exactly a comforting statement
 
Does it? Has Tesla ever offered any hardware upgrades? Seems like new hardware could be retrofitted into older cars in some cases.
To answer the actual question. Yes.

Tesla has HW2 and HW3 for Autopilot computers. Many functions do not work on HW2. If you buy FSD, which requires HW3, and you have HW2, they upgrade the HW.
Tesla will upgrade MCU1 in pre-2018 S/X cars to MCU2 for $1,500

In those cases, they are replacing something that exists, with a newer version. However, in cases where they need to add something, this has been much more rare (never?). For instance, the new noisemaker speaker on newer cars or heated steering wheels. They claim this can't be retrofit on older cars because the harness doesn't exist. Same with AP1 to AP2. Just too hard was the claim, with all the new wiring needed.

This is why the removal of something tends to be a more permanent path.
 
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You can pull a bumper cover and replace it in less than an hour if you have any experience. My first time took less than an hour on both a Model X and Model 3.
A Radar unit is nowhere near $900.

It's still a lot of money, but it's not $1B+.
I tried to find prices on one of the hot new designs, and the only thing I could find was that it costs "under 1000 Euros". Yes, the cheap stuff is nowhere near $900, but we already have cheap hardware, so what would be the point of replacing junk with more junk?

Even if it's only $500, that's still a lot of money when you're potentially talking about 1.5 million cars. If you can do it without upgrading the hardware, you do it without upgrading the hardware. Spend the money when you're sure that you need it.
 
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I tried to find prices on one of the hot new designs, and the only thing I could find was that it costs "under 1000 Euros". Yes, the cheap stuff is nowhere near $900, but we already have cheap hardware, so what would be the point of replacing junk with more junk?

Even if it's only $500, that's still a lot of money when you're potentially talking about 1.5 million cars. If you can do it without upgrading the hardware, you do it without upgrading the hardware. Spend the money when you're sure that you need it.

Here's the issue with your post:
You say what is there is "junk." Yet you also believe Tesla makes smart decisions.

Tesla put this junk on 1.5M cars. Why? They were sure enough in the past to spend $500M putting this on 1.5M cars. This means Tesla is bad at estimating what HW is needed, or being "sure" they need it before spending money. Tesla continues to put this "junk" on S/X cars, even though it can be trivially left off in production. Which is weird if they are "sure they don't need it".

Tesla put HW2/2.5 in hundreds of thousands of cars, likely at near $1B. Yet HW3 was needed, and they're working on HW4. They upgraded cameras too. This means Tesla is bad at estimating what HW is needed.

This is the company that has said since 2016 that all cars come with the HW needed for FSD. Yet, this became factually untrue in less than a year after it was said when HW2.5 was released, despite them being "sure" and then again a year after that with HW3.

Tesla has no history of knowing what HW is actually needed. We know for a fact they are not yet sure radar removal will work, since cars without radar have reduced/removed features, and they are leaving it on the premium vehicles, even refreshed ones, with the argument that the 3/Y will be doing validation first.

Nobody would have any issue with the radar removal if Tesla had first proved it wasn't needed by having it work just as well as cars with radar did. But it's clear they are still testing, trying, and developing, and there is a risk they'll never get there, like there always is with any R&D project. There is zero evidence they are "sure" - there is just evidence that they are willing to gamble, and their customers are along for that ride (like they have been on all Tesla autonomy projects). In fact, they're so unsure here that they required customers to acknowledge the change before delivering a car, which not something Tesla tends to do (see lumbar removal the same week).

It's exciting of Tesla can make vision only work. But their removal of radar from the 3/Y is not proof they have, nor is the current software that is released. Only time will tell if their gamble pays off. Their previous ones haven't and have required retrofits and changes and broken promises.
 
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Here's the issue with your post:
You say what is there is "junk." Yet you also believe Tesla makes smart decisions.

Tesla put this junk on 1.5M cars. Why?
  1. At the time, their vision was orders of magnitude away from being good enough at detecting obstructions in their path to do the job. RADAR bridged the gap until their neural nets got good enough and their self-driving hardware got fast enough.
  2. It's what was available on the market at the time. The better sensors did not exist until very recently.

They were sure enough in the past to spend $500M putting this on 1.5M cars. This means Tesla is bad at estimating what HW is needed, or being "sure" they need it before spending money. Tesla continues to put this "junk" on S/X cars, even though it can be trivially left off in production. Which is weird if they are "sure they don't need it".
The existing sensors are well under a hundred bucks. It's probably more like $75M, not counting the wiring harness. And for a large part of that time — certainly until HW3, and probably for a long time thereafter — they were necessary.


Tesla put HW2/2.5 in hundreds of thousands of cars, likely at near $1B. They upgraded cameras too. This means Tesla is bad at estimating what HW is needed.
Tesla put hardware in because they had to have hardware. They didn't replace HW2 computers with HW2.5, though, because it made no sense to upgrade hardware until they knew what was needed. But they did roll out HW2.5 because:
  1. I think it was cheaper to manufacture than HW2.
  2. Key components in HW2 were going out of mass production (and would have been much more expensive in the long term).
  3. They almost certainly needed better hardware just to run the A/B tests needed to get things to the point where they would need better hardware (HW3), which in turn they needed to get to the point where they could actually ship something moderately close to self-driving.
If Tesla had correctly estimated the amount of computing power required back when HW2 came out, the cost would have been astronomical.

For example, HW3 has two SoCs with a GPU capable of 600 GFLOPS of double-precision computation. Using chips from 2015 (for release in 2016), you'd need three GeForce GTX TITAN X GPUs at $1,000 each, for a total of $3,000 just for the GPUs, plus... I'm going to ballpark it at $1,200 for the CPU cores. That brings you to a $4,200 before you factor in the tens of thousands of dollars worth of hardware to replace their custom tensor processing silicon that didn't exist yet.

Today, HW3 is estimated to cost only $190.

They made the right call. Build what you can build reasonably using inexpensive parts that are readily available, do what you can with it, and then when you realize it isn't enough, you'll be able to get 10x the performance for the same price. Repeat a couple of times, and you'll eventually have enough horsepower, and you didn't waste money on buying that powerful hardware too early, and you can take the savings and use it to retrofit the whole fleet for a tiny fraction of the cost.


This is the company that has said since 2016 that all cars come with the HW needed for FSD. Yet, this became factually untrue in less than a year after it was said when HW2.5 was released, despite them being "sure."
Underestimating the requirements tends to be way cheaper than overestimating them, though, because the cost per compute power unit goes down over time. See above.


Tesla has no good history of knowing what HW is actually needed. We know for a fact they are not yet sure radar removal will work, since cars without radar have reduced/removed features, and they are leaving it on the premium vehicles, even refreshed ones, with the argument that the 3/Y will be doing validation first.
So think about it this way: they had a backlog of 10,000 Model 3 cars that they could not sell because they couldn't get the RADAR hardware. They had two choices: ship the cars without that hardware and hope that they could pull it off or leave about $60M worth of hardware rusting in a parking lot while they wait (possibly for months) to get that $500K worth of RADAR hardware.

If they're right, they just realized revenue sooner and ensured that they don't flood the market with too many cars in six months when the parts backlog clears. If they're wrong, it's a pretty easy fix.

However, they already have some RADAR hardware, and they've already paid for that hardware, so they might as well use them for the low-volume cars, ensuring that if they're wrong, they only have to write up documentation to tell their service centers how to install the missing hardware in two models of cars, rather than four. :)

Besides, I think they're pretty sure already. But in the short term, they are limiting certain features out of an abundance of caution, so they have to get people to confirm that they're okay with those limitations. I'm not particularly worried.