Tesla.com - "Transitioning to Tesla Vision"

[gearchruncher]

Fake news. Drove 800+ GA to NJ 2 phantom brakes.

When you're such a Tesla supporter that you think a phantom brake every 400 miles is no big deal and it's a solid defense to "it phantom brakes too much"

FYI, phantom braking on cruise control is actually considered an ASIL-C event- the second most critical level (ASIL D is an inadvertent airbag deploying for instance). It's supposed to happen less than both the headlights failing, and is in the same area as unintended acceleration. It's supposed to be on the order of once every 1M miles. It's not something a safety engineer thinks is a trivial event, and it occurring once every 400 miles is definitely not part of the design of a well engineered, tested, and matured system.

 

[BogStandard]

Dumb cruise would be a bad idea. There will be people who accidentally or unknowingly use it thinking it'll stop as usual.

Then the user doesn't need to enable it. Just have dumb cruise off by default. And the same could be said for any other form of automation. Going from autosteer to TACC for example.
I get a message saying "auto cruise will not stop when the acceleration pedal is depressed" if I'm holding it down a bit to cancel out a phantom brake or if I'm anticipating one. A similar message could be prominently displayed when dumb cruise is active. The user should always have options until level 5 autonomy is here.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Fake news. Drove 800+ GA to NJ 2 phantom brakes. Last year round trip of 1700 miles one phantom brake. So please give us a break.

Phantom braking is one of the most consistently reported issues.

It's always going to occur from time to time with autonomous or semi-autonomous car due to the sheer amount of sources. Like most phantom braking that I experience these days is maps related. As an example you can't go past Tacoma WA on I5 without a phantom braking event occurring with TACC because there is a maps issue so it suddenly slows down because it thinks a turn is coming up. There is no way to turn off the "slow for turn" feature of TACC.

In other cases I've experienced phantom braking with the Traffic Light/Sign response, and removing these was as simple as turning the feature off.

Now I'm not in agreement that we should have dumb cruise control as an option, and instead I think we need more granularity in which features to turn off. Like I was a fairly simple adaptive cruise control. In fact I'd like to set it to "smoothness" over safety. Like I want it to optimize smooth driving over everything else.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Dumb cruise would be a bad idea. There will be people who accidentally or unknowingly use it thinking it'll stop as usual.

My Jeep Wrangler Unlimited has both, and it's pretty obvious when I confuse the two. They have separate buttons so its rare that it happens, but I occasionally have a brain fart.

In any case I don't think dumb cruise is the answer, and instead TACC only should be more in-line with the adaptive cruise control other vehicles offer where phantom braking is very seldom if ever. Like I've never experienced a phantom braking even with adaptive cruise control on my Jeep.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

LOL, yeah ok. I wish I was making it up. But sure, scream fake news if anyone criticizes Tesla. Also, I have a May 2021 model with no radar, so I'm sure yours didn't phantom brake very often. I have no reason to lie, I just want it to work better and sharing my experience. This isn't exactly a base model Chevy Cruise here... I should expect better.

What I find kinda funny is the prevailing consensus on TMC was that Tesla Vision would significantly reduce phantom braking, but in the reports we have so far from people with Tesla Vision (without Radar) is that its worse.

Hopefully its better in the most recent update if you've installed it.

 

[smogne41]

I really really wish there was an option for a "dumb cruise" mode where it maintains speed no matter what like older dumb cars normally have. It could still keep lane assist on though.
The amount of phantom braking I've had on flat open roads is extremely disappointing and makes simple country road drives unpleasant. Jarring phantom braking every handful of miles is terrible and the antithesis to the smooth transport theme of this car. It really brought down the excitement of the car A LOT for me. I don't use TACC whenever someone is driving within a few car lengths behind me as I'm sure to piss them off with the constant "brake checks" or worst case an immediate hard slow down when they're not paying close enough attention.
It seems to happen most for me cresting any hill no matter how shallow or when there's oncoming cars on a two-way road. But it's also happened plenty on one-way roads. I can rarely predict when it may occur.

I've had instances where I'm driving on a wide open road with no one in front of me, no one behind me, and no one on-coming and it phantom brakes hard from 65 to ~40 within 2-3 seconds, Scared the crap outta me the first time it happened. In the 1800 miles I've driven the car now, I'd guestimate I've sent in a few dozen phantom brake bug reports. I'm just hoping all those reports actively help Tesla figure it out, I LOVE the car otherwise.

TLDR: PLEASE GIVE ME DUMB CRUISE!! At least until phantom braking with Vision is better sorted.

Yeah, I am super glad I had the option to NOT get AP when I bought my car in 2018. The dumb curse it has is great and I would not want to give up the option of using just that. Being forced to get only TACC would be one of several reasons I would avoid a new Tesla now if I had to replace my current one.

 

[WhiteWi]

When you're such a Tesla supporter that you think a phantom brake every 400 miles is no big deal and it's a solid defense to "it phantom brakes too much"

FYI, phantom braking on cruise control is actually considered an ASIL-C event- the second most critical level (ASIL D is an inadvertent airbag deploying for instance). It's supposed to happen less than both the headlights failing, and is in the same area as unintended acceleration. It's supposed to be on the order of once every 1M miles. It's not something a safety engineer thinks is a trivial event, and it occurring once every 400 miles is definitely not part of the design of a well engineered, tested, and matured system.

I never had phantom brake that was dangerous. As far as I know there is zero accidents caused by it. But hey keep on screaming how bad it is while Tesla continues to dominate.

 

[WhiteWi]

Same people that were screaming no radar will be the end of Tesla.

 

[gearchruncher]

What I find kinda funny is the prevailing consensus on TMC was that Tesla Vision would significantly reduce phantom braking,

You of course mean the "consensus" formed by Elon claiming that vision will solve phantom braking...

 

[gearchruncher]

I never had phantom brake that was dangerous. As far as I know there is zero accidents caused by it. But hey keep on screaming how bad it is while Tesla continues to dominate.

Now that's the kind of dismissive, FU, egocentric, victim blaming attitude I expect from someone whose post history is endless Tesla defense and constant use of "hater"!

Are you saying that a car which brakes when the driver is not expecting it is not a big deal, that Tesla's system is well matured, and that nobody else could have a different experience than yours? Seems weird even Elon would post about phantom braking if it's not a big deal.

 

[gearchruncher]

Same people that were screaming no radar will be the end of Tesla.

Said nobody ever.

 

[Scarletfever]

How likely is it that Tesla would get a lane centering/autosteer mode without needing to have TACC enabled? I don’t think I could currently trust the CC to the extent necessary for it to actually make driving more relaxing, but I really like the idea of autosteer.

 

[gearchruncher]

How likely is it that Tesla would get a lane centering/autosteer mode without needing to have TACC enabled?

Highly unlikely. This would be like you driving a car having only a steering wheel, but no throttle or brakes, and just having to handle any situation with only turning. Current TACC+Autosteer slows down below the speed limit for some corners, and disengages if you press the brakes.

Cruise control has been a thing for decades, and is generally a less complex task than autosteer. I'm interested why you feel TACC couldn't be trusted to the level of reducing your workload, but autosteer could? You'd have a pretty interesting workload maintaining the speed of the car manually while having the car do the steering.

Welcome to TMC!

 

[Scarletfever]

Highly unlikely. This would be like you driving a car having only a steering wheel, but no throttle or brakes, and just having to handle any situation with only turning. Current TACC+Autosteer slows down below the speed limit for some corners, and disengages if you press the brakes.

Cruise control has been a thing for decades, and is generally a less complex task than autosteer. I'm interested why you feel TACC couldn't be trusted to the level of reducing your workload, but autosteer could? You'd have a pretty interesting workload maintaining the speed of the car manually while having the car do the steering.

Welcome to TMC!

Thanks for the welcome!

The car I currently have is an accord. I never enable CC, although I do enable the Lane Assist, which is certainly not as good as what Autosteer can do. Basically with CC off and Autosteer on, I am in full control and fully responsible for the car, but there is a subtle amount of automatic steering that helps keep me in my lane, and reduces some amount of fatigue.

With the TACC + Autosteer, my impression the few times I've tried is, is that you really need to trust it in order to have fatigue reduced. I'd love to control the pedals, keep my hands on the wheel, and just let the car help me stay in the lane. I guess I trust that I can accelerate/decelerate by myself in a way that is more comfortable to myself and my passengers, that the car can. My commute to work is somewhat windy (so I like the steering assist) but there are enough cars on the road that a phantom break or an unexpected deceleration could be potentially bad.

One question I had about the AP + one pedal driving - if I am on AP on a highway and know I need to exit soon, I need to disengage AP and slow down. Do I need to use the break to do that, even though I'd be on one pedal mode?

 

[mhan00]

Thanks for the welcome!

The car I currently have is an accord. I never enable CC, although I do enable the Lane Assist, which is certainly not as good as what Autosteer can do. Basically with CC off and Autosteer on, I am in full control and fully responsible for the car, but there is a subtle amount of automatic steering that helps keep me in my lane, and reduces some amount of fatigue.

With the TACC + Autosteer, my impression the few times I've tried is, is that you really need to trust it in order to have fatigue reduced. I'd love to control the pedals, keep my hands on the wheel, and just let the car help me stay in the lane. I guess I trust that I can accelerate/decelerate by myself in a way that is more comfortable to myself and my passengers, that the car can. My commute to work is somewhat windy (so I like the steering assist) but there are enough cars on the road that a phantom break or an unexpected deceleration could be potentially bad.

One question I had about the AP + one pedal driving - if I am on AP on a highway and know I need to exit soon, I need to disengage AP and slow down. Do I need to use the break to do that, even though I'd be on one pedal mode?

Nope. Just nudge the gear changer up slightly (if you’re in a 3 or Y) and AP disengages. Easy. I constantly shift in and out of AP on the freeway and on city streets with zero issues, mostly because I worry That AP uses the brakes too much as it slows down so I disengage to use as much regen as possible but also because I see situations where I’m more comfortable controlling the car myself (merge lanes, high traffic areas where I need to make multiple lane changes between busy traffic lanes, etc). I also like to shift into neutral a lot to coast (hold the gear shifter slightly up for a second or two while in motion) before shifting back into drive to engage regen as I’m approaching a stopped line of cars.

i freaking love using AP even though I constantly disengage it. I find it to be an incredible way to take the stress out of driving long distances even while I constantly monitor it.

 

[Scarletfever]

Nope. Just nudge the gear changer up slightly (if you’re in a 3 or Y) and AP disengages. Easy. I constantly shift in and out of AP on the freeway and on city streets with zero issues, mostly because I worry That AP uses the brakes too much as it slows down so I disengage to use as much regen as possible but also because I see situations where I’m more comfortable controlling the car myself (merge lanes, high traffic areas where I need to make multiple lane changes between busy traffic lanes, etc). I also like to shift into neutral a lot to coast (hold the gear shifter slightly up for a second or two while in motion) before shifting back into drive to engage regen as I’m approaching a stopped line of cars.

i freaking love using AP even though I constantly disengage it. I find it to be an incredible way to take the stress out of driving long distances even while I constantly monitor it.

Interesting, thanks. But what happens when you disengage AP with the gear changer while your foot is not maintaining acceleration with the pedal? How does the car stay at speed and then how would you go from not using the pedals at all, to slowing down the car with the accelerator that isn't currently pushed at all? Does the car just gradually come to a stop until you accelerate again? I.e. if I'm going 85 on AP and disengage AP, do I have to immediately slam on the accelerator to make sure the car doesn't quickly stop?

 

[gearchruncher]

I.e. if I'm going 85 on AP and disengage AP, do I have to immediately slam on the accelerator to make sure the car doesn't quickly stop?

You have a much more aggressive view of regen than the cars really have. They start to slow down, but it's nothing like using the brakes, especially at 85 MPH. Much more like a manual transmission car. Regen is programmatically limited to about 1/5th what slamming on the brakes can do, and it's even weaker at higher speeds.

Just like any car, you can override the cruise to go faster by just using the pedal. I tend to press the accelerator gently (not slam it, you only need about 10% to go 85 MPH) until you feel the car speed up just a touch, then disengage TACC. This means there is no deceleration when you cancel.

How do you disengage cruise today? It's really no different.

 

[powertoold]

This is *not* phantom braking (around 52 seconds), just for your reference:

What is odd is that there are all these people posting about "phantom braking" while all the videos I've seen don't mention worse phantom braking (like Dirty Tesla). In fact, many of them report *better* than radar experiences.

I also don't know what you guys are smoking, but Tesla Vision is *absolute* magic. I can't believe the car can actually predict position / speed / etc. in moderate rain with mist and reflective roads. It almost makes no sense if you follow computer vision progress.

 

[gearchruncher]

This is *not* phantom braking (around 52 seconds), just for your reference:

Bruh, that's not even a phantom brake. Ok we're done with this conversation.

You like to just drop "that isn't a phantom brake" in on videos that clearly show a car slowing down when no human would have. Most people tend to use it in that way, much like most people would assume "full self driving" means you don't need to drive the car. But we're in Elon's world, so words mean different things.

Can you please give us the definition of phantom brake so we can all be enlightened and use it correctly?

 

[powertoold]

Can you please give us the definition of phantom brake so we can all be enlightened and use it correctly?

The guy in the video explains that it isn't a phantom brake as well (see starting 1:25). He then goes on to say he hasn't had a single phantom brake in 3000+ miles.

And also, yes, some humans would slow down for that car.