Tesla confirms Model 3 will have less than 60kWh battery option

[gregincal]

At lower speeds, weight is the bigger factor in energy consumption (whether hydrocarbons or electrons), at higher speeds, it's usually more an issue of aerodynamic drag.

However weight creates a much much greater penalty for ICE vehicles in city driving. They have to accelerate that mass after every stop and the energy just gets wasted as heat when stopping. At least for an EV the bulk of the energy gets recaptured.

 

[Big Dog]

I like that FlatSix911 posted the entire article.
It was good reading.

Yes, it was good reading, but posting a full article is not only in bad form, it can also be a copyright infringement.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

If less than 60kWh, I'm disappointed because I think that Tesla needs to look _higher_, but it doesn't have to be _much_ less than 60kWh if the emphasis was on bad assumptions.

 

[Tam]

Vice-President of Investor Relations, Jeff Evanson said the bare bone Model ≡ would start with a less than 60 kWh battery pack. Its cost is less than $190/kWh so the $35,000 price is profitable.

It will use steel in addition to aluminum so although the chassis itself is heavier but because the car is 20% smaller than Model S the overall weight should compensate to give you 215 mile range.

 

[LargeHamCollider]

I've been saying this for a while, M3 will have a 50-55kwh battery pack in the base model, I'm leaning toward 50.

 

[brianman]

...

Thanks for the link, TEG.

"the BMW i3 driver only has one choice in when the tires need swapping"
Yuck.

 

[Red Sage]

Another thing that is greatly improved is efficiency of components. The RAV4 EV is built off of original Roadster components. Tesla has learned a lot since then and the Model S/X/3 aren't converted ICEs like the RAV4.

As Xaff mentioned on the previous page, even the original roadster did 240 miles on 56 kWh. I think it's rather silly that you're doubting that 8 years of development can't make a vehicle the next size up have at least the same efficiency as a first generation vehicle.

Some guy on YouTube acquired a drivetrain from a wrecked Toyota RAV4 EV and claimed the motor was identical to those from Model S. He was attempting to hack the system, to learn how to use it to retrofit other cars.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I like that FlatSix911 posted the entire article.
It was good reading.
Also he has a cool car.

Cool or not, it is a violation of forum rules (see last section about copyright) and copyright law. It is also disrespectful to the article author.
Forum Rules

 

[EcoHeliGuy]

I admit I'm somewhat uninformed on the topic of battery costs, but if what the Tesla VP of Investor Relations said is true and battery costs is already below $190/kWh, then doesn't that mean that Tesla is currently making an absolute killing on current Model S and X battery upgrades and/or pricing in general? At some point should the price for the bigger battery option come down for those cars? Or will they continue to just offer bigger battery sizes for the same price? Not sure how the profit margin for the battery upgrades have changed over the years for the Model S. I would love to know though if someone more informed than me had that kind of data handy...

At any rate, I'm excited about what this could possibly mean for the price of the bigger battery option for the Model 3. At first, I was thinking it was an unneeded luxury expense for me since I didn't really care about max range, especially given the $10K+ price of the option on the S. But since learning about the added performance benefits and more efficient charging that a bigger battery offers, I've definitely been intrigued. If the price of the option does end up dropping below $7500, then there are going to be a LOT of boxes checked for that option...

that assuming the Model S and X Stagnat with no refreshes. With battery prices coming down, Tesla can include more tech and features for the same price point. There isn't a lack of demand to warrant a price reduction.

Model S/X prices are unlikely to change until they have electric competition that forces them to adjust.

history disagrees with you point a view. 75D and P90D wouldn't excite if that was the case.

I think they put handling under the safety banner when they prioritize non-narrow tires.

The tires are very much dependant on the weight of the Vehicle. Surface contact weight displacement and lateral acceleration. Narrower tires would give an unsafe ride and damage roads.

 

[ecarfan]

The RAV4 EV version wasn't designed from the ground up as an EV, and probably had a terrible CD value.

 

[EfficientWatts]

The RAV4 EV version wasn't designed from the ground up as an EV, and probably had a terrible CD value.

The All-Electric 2012 Toyota RAV4 EV First Drive | Toyota

The Toyota RAV4 EV offers an exceptionally smooth, quiet ride and comfortable handling due in part to its low coefficient of drag and low center of gravity. In fact, at 0.30 Cd, RAV4 EV achieves the lowest coefficient of drag of any SUV in the world. Compared with the gas powered RAV4, at 0.35 Cd, Toyota re-styled the front bumper, upper and lower grill, side mirrors, rear spoiler, and under body design to optimize air flow around the vehicle. The RAV4 EV’s battery pack is mounted low and to the center of the vehicle, contributing to a more sedan-like ride.

 

[Red Sage]

The RAV4 EV version wasn't designed from the ground up as an EV, and probably had a terrible CD value.

As noted by QuantumSlip, only the Model X among SUVs has a better coefficient of drag than the RAV4 EV.

 

[vgrinshpun]

I admit I'm somewhat uninformed on the topic of battery costs, but if what the Tesla VP of Investor Relations said is true and battery costs is already below $190/kWh, then doesn't that mean that Tesla is currently making an absolute killing on current Model S and X battery upgrades and/or pricing in general? At some point should the price for the bigger battery option come down for those cars? Or will they continue to just offer bigger battery sizes for the same price? Not sure how the profit margin for the battery upgrades have changed over the years for the Model S. I would love to know though if someone more informed than me had that kind of data handy...

At any rate, I'm excited about what this could possibly mean for the price of the bigger battery option for the Model 3. At first, I was thinking it was an unneeded luxury expense for me since I didn't really care about max range, especially given the $10K+ price of the option on the S. But since learning about the added performance benefits and more efficient charging that a bigger battery offers, I've definitely been intrigued. If the price of the option does end up dropping below $7500, then there are going to be a LOT of boxes checked for that option...

Model S over the years since introduction has added a lot of features, which significantly improved the value proposition.

As an example I have 2013 P85+ with all options available at the time except the child seats, with the price of $117K. The closest match performance wise would be 90D, which with all options, except the seats costs $3 less - $114K.

So 90D today has comparable performance to my P85+ for $3K less, while adding a lot of features listed below (the list is pretty long and I probably forgot to list some). The 2016 90D is much better value than 2013 P85+

• Dual motor AWD
• extra 5kWh of battery capacity and 29 miles of range
• Autopilot safety features
• Autopilot convenience features
• New generation seats
• Full LED headlights
• Dynamic LED fog lights
• Power folding mirrors
• LTE connectivity
• HEPA filtration
• Center console
• Subzero weather package

 

[eloder]

~*sigh*~

The 2014 Toyota RAV4 EV had a 50 kWh battery pack with 41.8 kWh available for use. It achieved a 103 mile EPA rated range. This car used a Tesla Motors drivetrain and battery pack, though the motor was rated at only 154 HP. It weighed roughly 400 lbs less than the Model S 60.

Something here does not compute.

You're talking about a heavy SUV versus the most aerodynamic production car on the market.

As others stated, a 30kwh Leaf hits about 104 miles EPA. Double that, you get 208. The Leaf is about a .31 cd while the Model 3 is a .21 cd.

Weight matters very little for highway mileage, just city mileage for aerodynamic cars.

Math works out perfectly fine.

 

[timk225]

If battery cost is already below $190 / KW, with a full year of development time ahead of us, I would like to think that Tesla will make a 55-60 KW USEABLE CAPACITY battery that is cost effective enough for profits, and good enough to pass the 215 mile criteria, even in less than perfect conditions.

 

[Woosie]

Let's not forget the usable battery capacity might be 10-15% less than 55 kWh. Also, they probably wouldn't say 215 miles unless they had at least 5-10 miles of margin above that.

So the calculation could be 48 kWh for 225 miles, which is 4.7 mi/kWh, which seems unrealistic. I'm not sure how they would get there with a 3500+ lb car, even with a very low Cd.

The i3 gets 4.3 mi/kWh using a similar calculation (EPA range/usable capacity -> 81 mi / 18.8 kWh). It is less than 2900 lbs and has a 0.29 Cd.

I averaged 4.6 mi/kWh for the. 3 year Leaf lease. The numbers are doable.

 

[Az_Rael]

I averaged 4.6 mi/kWh for the. 3 year Leaf lease. The numbers are doable.

Doable. Maybe not pleasant though. I think the Volt is supposed to average 3.8miles/kWh but I have never even gotten close to that. I don't drive around in sport mode all the time or anything, but I do drive a lot of 70mph freeway miles. Other folks do get much higher numbers in Volts than me, but you have to drive very slowly, turn off your climate control, etc. I don't want to drive 5 or 10 under the speed limit on the highway, so I sacrifice the efficiency.

I want to be able to drive my Model 3 like a normal car, so I will be getting the largest battery they offer.

 

[jkk_]

I want to be able to drive my Model 3 like a normal car, so I will be getting the largest battery they offer.

Ditto. As side effect you will also get better performance, not only regarding speed / acceleration but also supercharging performance if I've understood things correctly?

 

[AUSinator]

Model S/X prices are unlikely to change until they have electric competition that forces them to adjust.

The electric competition is coming end of 2017 the model 3.

 

[garsh]

Tesla won't be trying to pit the Model S against the Model 3. Model S/X sales will continue to be viewed as the sales that fund the development of additional vehicles. They'll continue to sell in smaller quantities at higher prices. Tesla will continue to update the tech nology and features available in those cars while keeping the price in the same ballpark, thus providing better value as time goes by. But those are big money-makers, and they need money, and they're still selling every car that they can possibly make.