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TESLA Headed for Lack of Cash Again?

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The Nevada facility will be an area of the Gigafactory, where the motors and batteries are already assembled/manufactured.

Yes,

Y will have the same powertrain as the 3.

Yes,

It also won't be the ridiculous monster that the X is. The Y will be much more of a variant.

Yeah?

Shanghai is financed with Chinese investment so self-contained.

Self contained in what respect? It is still debt. The company can only sustain so much debt before the lenders get too nervous to lend anymore. If you have a mortgage, and two car loans, it starts getting much more difficult to get more financing.


US cell manufacturing would be paid for by Panasonic.

Where did you read that?


Build a line.
Get it working.
Duplicate.

Lol. Tesla has failed at every production line they have put together. EVERY ONE! To this day the model 3 production is not at the level Musk stated as the goal back in Q1 of 2018. Either they don't want to produce cars they don't have demand for or they *can't* produce cars they have demand for. Which is more desirable? Which is the truth?


The 3SR is the Tesla problem. Y will not be a problem.

Based on what exactly?


No 3SR, no Y.

Huh? Since when is the Y predicated on the short range version being profitable? Are you suggesting they can't sell the model Y if they can't make a $35,000 version of it?
 
Let’s try this another way.

Tesla’s operating cash flow in Q3/Q4 2018 (annualized):
$5.2B

Tesla’s estimated capex in 2019:
$2.5B

Extra cash to pay down debt and bolster cash position in 2019 AFTER funding China (GF3), M3 ramp, Model Y, Semi, etc., assuming zero improvement in cash flow in 2019:

$5.2B-$2.5B=

$2.7 Billion

For reference, this is how Tesla described their 2019 capex needs:

“Our 2019 capex, the vast majority of which will be to grow our capacity and develop new vehicles, is expected to be about $2.5 billion. We believe this amount should be sufficient to continue to develop our main projects, such as Gigafactory Shanghai, Model Y and Tesla Semi, as well as for the further expansion of our Supercharger, service and retail networks. We expect to arrange financing through local banks in China to fund most of the capex for Gigafactory Shanghai.​

Since Model Y will be built on the Model 3 platform and is designed to share about 75% of its components with Model 3, the cost of the Model Y production line should be substantially lower than the Model 3 line in Fremont, and the production ramp should also be faster.” http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/0b913415-467d-4c0d-be4c-9225c2cb0ae0
 
Yes,



Yes,



Yeah?



Self contained in what respect? It is still debt. The company can only sustain so much debt before the lenders get too nervous to lend anymore. If you have a mortgage, and two car loans, it starts getting much more difficult to get more financing.




Where did you read that?




Lol. Tesla has failed at every production line they have put together. EVERY ONE! To this day the model 3 production is not at the level Musk stated as the goal back in Q1 of 2018. Either they don't want to produce cars they don't have demand for or they *can't* produce cars they have demand for. Which is more desirable? Which is the truth?




Based on what exactly?




Huh? Since when is the Y predicated on the short range version being profitable? Are you suggesting they can't sell the model Y if they can't make a $35,000 version of it?

If the 3SR isn't profitable, Tesla is dead because their production costs won't be low enough to sustain demand and generate profit. If it's profitable they will have sustained demand to give them sustained profit and much improved cash flow.

Panasonic will pay for cell production, because that's how it's been working all the time: Panasonic is just an on-site supplier at the Gigafactory and Tesla has a contract to buy from them. When the contract adds cells, Panasonic adds lines.

Tesla ramped production OK for the S.
Tesla messed up with the X, introducing FWDs and the large glass.
Tesla had problems with the 3, largely the system of automated manufacture, with Tesla trying to cut costs. They had to rebuild it and are still trying to improve it.
The Y is just going to be a boxy 3, not a weirdmobile, so it's not going to require the same level of investment required by an entirely new model.

Worry about the 3SR, not the Y.
 
Last two quarters after model 3 production ramped up.

450 million in profits and 1.7 billion in free cash flow.

I hope these are only the start of many more massive Tesla manufacturing failures.

Are you really not aware of the huge losses they incurred for nearly a year to get to this point? Sure, you have to spend money to make money. The issue is whether they have enough money to get to the point of continuing to make money again.

What are you expecting to happen Q1 and Q2 of this year? How about the remaining quarters? Do you think the profits of Q3 and Q4 of 2018 will be the norm going forward?
 
What's to worry about? S ramped, 3 ramped, Y is basically a 3. Massive profitability achieved. You guys are being trolled and letting that set the narrative. We're past all this.

When is home solar + storage going to re-ramp? That's the question!

Presently home storage is not a viable solution to any problem a home owner has. At least I've never seen any numbers that say it is profitable to invest in storage. If you go to the Tesla site they don't provide any data, they tell you to contact them.

Solar can be profitable, but it depends on the utility buying what you produce. Currently this is mandated in a number of states, but is not guaranteed to last until a solar system bought today has paid for itself. The utilities have to be forced to buy your power because solar doesn't address the peak power demand curve and actually exacerbates it once enough solar is installed. I saw a curve of the power demand in California since they have been mandating that all homes sold must have some minimum amount of solar generation installed. This doesn't make utilities happy because it means they have to pay even more for peak power usage.

I won't bore you with the facts about the production ramps of the Tesla cars. I've already presented the facts. If you want to ignore them, fine.
 
That's over simple (Einstein warned of such things).
Tesla removed the referral program. That program cost money per car. It does not hurt Tesla's bottom line, and adds good will, if they they reduce pricing by a percentage of the savings. Tesla goal is to accelerate the transition to renewal transportation, not to make the most money possible. Getting cars into the hand if people is one way they achieve this goal. Going for 30+% gross margin hurts the goal, so why do it?

Not clear on what you are saying. Tesla can't exist if it loses money. Further, the stockholders will remove anyone they think is doing anything other than making profit. The company or officers can say what they want regarding doing good for the world. They can mean it. But as soon as that goal interferes with making profit they will be out. Again, it's that simple.


The US price change to partly offset the EV credit drop did not impact oversea's pricing. All manufacturers get more efficient and reduce price over time. Tier 1 supplier agreements even require it...

If Tesla could afford to drop prices why wait until the EV tax credit was cut? It makes sense to cut prices as early as you can if your only goal is to sell cars with no regard to profit.

Actually, that is not a law of nature. It typically happens, but it is more about the volume. Increase the volume by a factor of 10 and expect a 50% cost reduction. The prices of cars have steadily risen over the decades, not dropped, even after accounting for inflation. It doesn't matter what is in agreements. If the costs to the supplier don't drop the price to Tesla won't drop. Tesla can try to find a better supplier and is unlikely to if the issue is price.


No, that is also over simplifying, you are saying the only possible reason behind the 'can't' is demand. Tesla is bumping up against the limits of what they can comfortably build, and pushing the boundary, that is the 'can't', not demand.

The company and Musk have indicated they want to increase production, yet it hasn't happened. So if not because there is no need to, why? Do you really think it is an impossibility?

There is no evidence of pent up demand. They had to open ordering to anyone with money last summer because there was not enough demand on the reservation list. Now they are begging reservation holders to buy cars. I just got a call today. I'm not predicting Q1 since the overseas sales is a wild card. It may be enough to keep demand up to supply, maybe not.


Tesla does not have infinite resources, Fremont does not have infinite space. Creating 3k of production in a new GF4 was judged to be a better use of time and capital than adding 3k of production to Fremont.

GF4? I think you are ahead of us all. But you are absolutely right about the lack of infinite resources. That is exactly the problem I am referring to. I'm glad you finally understand.
 
...huge losses...

Losses and therefore Tesla must die for not making a profit are simple sound bites and that have been regurgitated since 2003 or the past 16 years.

Tesla burns cash, loses more than $4,000 on every car sold | Reuters

That simplicity ignores the fact that TSLA is not a dividend stock but it is a growth stock.

That simplicity ignores the fact the August 7, 2013 Shareholder Letter clearly said that profits are not its primary goal.

That simplicity ignores that growth stocks can burn cash and its books can appear like huge losses just like the way Amazon did for 2 decades.

If you don't have the stomach for a growth stock TSLA, you are choosing the wrong stock.
 
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While they did finally get the model 3 into volume production, that happened some six months later than they forecast

6 months late? SO Freakin WHAT? All the ICE giants with 100 years of manufacturing expertise are struggling to produce even 1/10th of what Tesla has done so far. They are scratching their heads unable to increase production beyond a few thousand a year and unable to reduce costs either.

If you paid attention, M3 was originally planned to come only in 2020, but Musk later accelerated it to 2017, but achieved mass volume in 2018. In my book, that is 2 years earlier than planned or wait for this: fastest EV from concept to mass production. NONE of the ICE gaints can bring an EV to mass production (300k run rate) this quick.

The whole automobile industry is entering a new territory, are in uncharted waters and hasn't got a clue on how to mass manufacture EVs. The only one thats figured this out is Tesla.

We will have to wait and see if Shanghai is producing 3k model 3's a week at the end of 2019. That will indeed be a significant accomplishment.

I will give you a little heads up. Don't tell anyone. Tesla will only hit 1k cars/week this year and will get to 3k/week only sometime early next year. You can then add another massive FAILURE to Tesla's list. Yes, from dirt to cars rolling off the line in less than 12 months is a BIG failure.

Tesla has failed at every production line they have put together. EVERY ONE!

Really? If making a 300 mile range car, under $50K at 300k/year run-rate and still making profit is considered a failure, I am not sure what you will say about the half dozen failed attempts from ICE gaints so far - the latest being, eTron and iPace.
 
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At the moment Tesla is making money with a net positive cash flow. But while sales of model 3s are good, the model Y is going to become another cash drain. If they really want to be shipping these things in volume by the end of the year as well as building a new factory in China, they are going to be spending money like it's on fire.

You think losing better part of a billion each quarter was big news before? Wait until that is happening *after* selling 60,000 model 3s a quarter.

Where are they going to get the cash they need to build so much so quickly?
Are you really not aware of the huge losses they incurred for nearly a year to get to this point? Sure, you have to spend money to make money. The issue is whether they have enough money to get to the point of continuing to make money again.

What are you expecting to happen Q1 and Q2 of this year? How about the remaining quarters? Do you think the profits of Q3 and Q4 of 2018 will be the norm going forward?

Very aware of the cost of building factories and very aware of once you have one up and running pumping out a desirable product what a cash cow they can be.

What you call a failure looks like it is going to be ragingly profitable.

Q1 small profit but large free cash positive other then the bond payment. Those investments in factories get written off as depreciation. Q2 large profit large free cash flow. Q3 and Q4 are going to be profitable and seriously free cash flow positive. No need for additional equity to be sold. The building of additional factories, will generate the depreciation that will limit profitability but allow strong free cash flow for further investments.

Model Y will be a money drain short term. You know as far as you can see ;) but will turn out to be cash cow in a couple of years.

Why build in China? Reduced manufacturing costs and reduced transportation cost for regional markets.
 
Taking the total loss and dividing by the number of cars sold to make it sound like they sell each car at a loss is some world class business strategery on display right there by Reuters.
 
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Very aware of the cost of building factories and very aware of once you have one up and running pumping out a desirable product what a cash cow they can be.

What you call a failure looks like it is going to be ragingly profitable.

It was a failure in the sense of producing cars with a known expenditure on a known schedule with a known profit. Companies have to make profit to survive and can't spend more money than they have in the bank. If Tesla can't get the model Y out the door on time and under budget, they will be looking at the same problems they saw with the model 3 that brought them close to having major financial problems.

Everyone here seems to think the fact that they managed to pull it off once means they will be able to repeat the same performance any number of times, but there will be differences not in their favor.

1) It ain't the "new" thing the model 3 was so they won't be able to rope in $100's of millions of dollars of reservation money.

2) They will need to expand every part of their company (something the failed to do with the model 3 and resulted in getting a lot of bad press on service and now charging).

3) Expanding into China will be a major focus shift taking the eyes of management off the entire US production efforts while they go through "foreign communications" hell.

The list goes on.


Q1 small profit but large free cash positive other then the bond payment. Those investments in factories get written off as depreciation.

Yup, great for the balance sheet, but producing zero actual cash.


Q2 large profit large free cash flow. Q3 and Q4 are going to be profitable and seriously free cash flow positive. No need for additional equity to be sold. The building of additional factories, will generate the depreciation that will limit profitability but allow strong free cash flow for further investments.

I don't know what you base any of this on. As they ramp up the Shanghai factory they will be spending a lot of money that isn't part of the loans (secured by capital). They have to pay salaries while they train people and get production lines functional. It will be nearly as much as making cars, but with no cars being made. The question is whether this will be for six months or a year or longer? While Tesla is making money at the moment, they have failed in every attempt to get a new model into production on schedule and under budget.

Depreciation doesn't create cash flow. It is a way of accounting for capital investment for tax purposes. Buying capital isn't a loss (the thing you bought is worth the money paid) so you don't get a tax advantage. Then you depreciate it over 10 or 20 or 30 years and each year you deduct that portion of it as a loss on the taxes. The only cash advantage is the tax not paid on the deduction.


Model Y will be a money drain short term. You know as far as you can see ;) but will turn out to be cash cow in a couple of years.

Maybe sooner than a couple of years. The problem is what happens in the mean time. It's not all clear sailing, especially since they are building two new production lines at the same time or at least overlapping. If the Shanghai factory is late, they will be spending massive amounts of money trying to get it running while spending massive amounts of money on the Nevada model Y factory. This will likely delay the model Y production date.

These may not be certainties, but they are not implausible possibilities.


Why build in China? Reduced manufacturing costs and reduced transportation cost for regional markets.

Nothing wrong with that. I'm just pointing out that Tesla seems to suck at doing anything on time and on budget. As Musk said himself, "Don't ask me how long it will take, I've never run an automotive company before". That says it all in a nutshell.
 
What loss are you referencing? The first two quarters of Model 3 production were quite profitable.

Are you hallucinating? Production started in July, 2017 and didn't become profitable until Q3 of 2018. Cash flow was $-745,251,000 in Q1, $-436,470,000 in Q2 and profits were no better. All of 2018 only saw about 300 million in positive cash flow and a billion dollar loss in profit.

Yes, the model 3 is rocking the balance sheet now, but each new vehicle costs billions of dollars to get into production. Tesla doesn't have lots of cash left and will be pushing TWO production projects at once.

I wonder if they will be making the batteries in Nevada or if they will create a new battery line in China? There seem to be reports indicating battery production is the current limitation to production numbers. I don't know. I don't think Tesla is saying.
 
6 months late? SO Freakin WHAT? All the ICE giants with 100 years of manufacturing expertise are struggling to produce even 1/10th of what Tesla has done so far. They are scratching their heads unable to increase production beyond a few thousand a year and unable to reduce costs either.

I think you don't understand the market. While everyone else is sticking their toes in the water, Tesla has dived in head first. Tesla has done an amazing job with the technology, but in reality, everything they've done other than the fantastic job on the batteries is overkill. 99% of EV buyers won't care about 0-60 times of 3 seconds. Many buyers will shy away from falcon wing doors.

What big iron is good at is PRODUCING cars. They've done it for 100 years with all manner of innovation and change. They've been making electric cars for over a decade. They have learned from their experiences and will be introducing new cars over the next three years or so.


If you paid attention, M3 was originally planned to come only in 2020, but Musk later accelerated it to 2017, but achieved mass volume in 2018. In my book, that is 2 years earlier than planned or wait for this: fastest EV from concept to mass production. NONE of the ICE gaints can bring an EV to mass production (300k run rate) this quick.

If they didn't produce the model 3 when they did, the company would be bankrupt and out of business by now. So I have no idea what you are talking about.


The whole automobile industry is entering a new territory, are in uncharted waters and hasn't got a clue on how to mass manufacture EVs. The only one thats figured this out is Tesla.

Ok, this is just not right. The thing big iron is great at is building factories that crank out automobiles. Any auto maker who isn't great at it went out of business in the 60's. Putting an electric motor in a car is not even a new thing to them. Many of them have plugin hybrids and a number of them make BEVs. The reason they aren't selling tons of them is because of the charging. The other thing Tesla did right was to build their own charging network. That makes is practical to take EVs on trips.

I talked to a Chevy dealer about the Bolt and when we got to charging the salesman's tone changed and the answer I got was basically, "charging happens". They are letting third parties construct the charging network with a big push from Volkswagen with their diesel-gate penalties paying for a bunch of new charger installations across the US. But it will take... three or four years to reach the level Tesla is at now.

See the connection...? Cars in three years, chargers in three years... Why try to sell cars without a good charging network?


I will give you a little heads up. Don't tell anyone. Tesla will only hit 1k cars/week this year and will get to 3k/week only sometime early next year. You can then add another massive FAILURE to Tesla's list. Yes, from dirt to cars rolling off the line in less than 12 months is a BIG failure.

Don't know what you are talking about. I assume there is a large sarcasm factor, but the message is lost from lack of context.


Really? If making a 300 mile range car, under $50K at 300k/year run-rate and still making profit is considered a failure, I am not sure what you will say about the half dozen failed attempts from ICE gaints so far - the latest being, eTron and iPace.

I thought my meaning was clear. In terms of doing what they said they would do to reach production, all three cars were failures. That's the context. All three times Tesla brought cars to mass production they were late... very late costing billions of more dollars than expected.

So now with the production plant in China and the model Y production in Nevada, what should we expect? Should we expect them to be on time and under budget?

Since you want to compare to the other makers, GM produced the Bolt about six months late but meeting the target price and delivering exactly the car they said they would deliver. If the charging network were better, it would be a more practical car. Without that it is a good commuting car which is what the one Bolt owner I've talked to bought it for.
 
Whether Tesla will want to have additional financing or not what's the issue if there are investors who are willing to put money in? Shorts' tactic I believe is to preemptively create an atmosphere to make Tesla reluctant to fund for new growth. If you don't believe that just look at how Wall Street treated Rivian financing. It's all good news when they got a $700 million new funding. And that's for a company that's been in existence for 10 years without selling a single car.
 
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I think you don't understand the market...

Would you be like Cathie Wood of Ark Invest who is bullish about Tesla or would you be like critical like her news anchors:

Elon Musk gives new podcast interview about Tesla's growth and future

I've heard enough fears of dried up demand when the Roadster was in production. The same fear was also reproduced when Model S was in production.

The same fear also was repeated as Model X in production.

Panasonic took in the same fear when Tesla asked it to produce more batteries and join Tesla in Gigafactory. Panasonic thought that was a crazy idea because why anyone would need that many batteries?

That's now history in the past as Panasonic can't even keep up the battery demand currently.

It's another Déjà vu as the same fear also is now reinstated as Model 3 is in production currently.

The auto industry is projecting a down year for 2019 while Tesla is projecting its own production as up.

So, is Tesla wrong or it is just misunderstood?
 
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