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Tesla Lemon Model S owner Rebuttal to Tesla's Blog Post
- Thread starter montgom626
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Krugerrand
Meow
Sorry, forgot the smiley face. (As a matter of record, I own a 2006 Chevy Cobalt that's been a nice little car to date, except for the issues I've had with it.)
You're taking one situation to broad brush the vehicle. I can tell you that I've been in for one problem in 12 months, the MCU (center screen) was replaced because of a fault. They couldn't trace the precise nature of it and simply exchanged the screen and controller because it was the fastest solution. It was a one day fix and did not leave me stranded. I've never had a door problem, motor problem, battery problem or fit/finish issue. There's another data point which is about as helpful as the one you referenced.
You are buying a new model from a new manufacturer. There will be issues, just like with any new model or model year from any other manufacturer. This forum is full of information but the reliability is simply unknown though initial results have been positive. The service centers go out of their way to resolve problems without trying to cut corners. Only you can decide what the odds are and whether they're tolerable.
Quite!!!
I was trying to post a genuine concern from someone who was recently burned by a car made on a Monday or ... Maybe you have a lot of time to waste waiting for a two truck, I don't.
The car I had the issues with was an Acura, yes Acura like Porsche and Tesla tried to ignore me the one consumer crying. Acura has millions of cars driving on the road and they have one of the best quality reputation there is out there but the one car I bought from them drove me to the brink of a nervous breakdown!!! and yes it took a lawyer to resolve it!!!
I think you may find, even with the numerous reports of issues here because this car is under a microscope like no other, that a large majority of customers are very happy and many gush over their service center. Not all but there are negative experiences with anything. Even an article about a firefighter saving a puppy has someone critique the fire department in the comment section on CNN.
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So, as an owner who had a faulty handle, I can say this: it was one of four handles, the rest were fine. The problem showed up over time, and the service center manager told me exactly what was going on (because of my electrical engineering training) and it made perfect sense to me. They updated the handle manufacturing design and that was the end of it. My handles have been fine ever since. The owner filing here lives a fair bit out from a service center. Enough that the time it is "in the shop" is blown out of proportion by the delivery and pick-up process. I live within 10 miles of my service center. You are in "Southern California" which means you won't be struggling with that (unless you live in Indio or out by the Salton Sea).
Beyond the door handles, I'm hearing about noise, trim fit, and charge cable issues, very little else. OK, tread wear, but come on, that's a tire! This is a new car from the ground up. Take a little perspective here: you're buying a car which keeps getting better as you own it. I have an inkling of what's in the 6.0 software, and it is very impressive. I still can't believe what came with the 5.9 release. I won't spoil it.
Regarding the brink of a nervous break-down, I can't imagine what you went through, but I sincerely hope that the issues I've captured aren't quite so severe. If that's the worst you can expect, ask yourself, are you going to be okay? I know what it's like to need a lawyer. I swear mine is more of a shrink than anything else, and the sooner I call, the sooner I feel better. He lays out expectations, goes through my what-if scenarios, and then whatever ends up happening, I can accept it.
I suggest going through with the sale. At the very least, a used Model S will be in high demand and you won't be out much for your trouble, what with all that state tax incentive in CA!
SOCALS, I have doubts about how Tesla has treated the OP based on my personal experience. I received a P85 in March 2013, which I believe is the same time frame as the OP received his car. I had put 100 miles on the car when I parked it at a friends house. When I came out, the car would not wake up and it had to be towed to the SC. Tesla gave the car back a few days later, saying it worked when it arrived at the SC and they could find nothing wrong. The day after I got it back, it went to sleep in my garage, and then woke up just before the towing company came to pick it up again. I drove it to the SC and they gave me a loaner. The car went back to sleep at the SC (so they knew I had not made up the issue). They thought they had found the problem and said I could come and get the car, that they were taking it to a car wash place before giving it back to me. Unfortunately, the car went to sleep in the car wash and they could not wake it up. When it would go to sleep, nothing could be done to waken it, until the car "decided" it wanted to wake up.
Long story short, the next day I received a phone call from a high ranking person at Tesla (NOT initiated by me), saying they are very sorry I am having problems, that it is unacceptable and they will do whatever it takes to make me whole and happy. He then made several proposals to me. I accepted one of them, and can say I don't regret it. Out of respect to Tesla, I do not wish to discuss the specifics. My car is now 1 year old and I am still extremely happy with it. Has it been perfect no, but nothing major, small things like wind noise and a charge port that would get stuck at times (now fixed). Never had handle problems, inverter problems or anything that is major.
I can tell you that Tesla treated me way better than Lexus, MB, GM et al. would have treated me. Based on my experience, I just find it hard to believe that Tesla would ignore the OP as he alleges. To the contrary, based on my personal experience, they bend over backwards to take care of any and all issues one may have.
Long story short, the next day I received a phone call from a high ranking person at Tesla (NOT initiated by me), saying they are very sorry I am having problems, that it is unacceptable and they will do whatever it takes to make me whole and happy. He then made several proposals to me. I accepted one of them, and can say I don't regret it. Out of respect to Tesla, I do not wish to discuss the specifics. My car is now 1 year old and I am still extremely happy with it. Has it been perfect no, but nothing major, small things like wind noise and a charge port that would get stuck at times (now fixed). Never had handle problems, inverter problems or anything that is major.
I can tell you that Tesla treated me way better than Lexus, MB, GM et al. would have treated me. Based on my experience, I just find it hard to believe that Tesla would ignore the OP as he alleges. To the contrary, based on my personal experience, they bend over backwards to take care of any and all issues one may have.
jacobp
Member
SOCALS. Thanks for posting your concerns. We all understand them. I wish you luck in the purchase of your non-Tesla car.
Purchasing a Tesla requires a small amount of patience and understanding that there are bugs or issues with the car and that Tesla is a new car company. No offense, but it doesn't sound like you have what i consider to be the requisite amount of patience that purchasing a Tesla requires. By your comments it seems that a bug or issue that i and perhaps others would find to be nothing more than a slight annoyance would really set you off. And given the intense media spotlight on Tesla, the last thing we need is for another person to go off on Tesla for items that i and others might find minor, but you would find major. I'm really trying not to be critical, as each person has their own level of comfort with these kinds of things. I'm sure some people have not purchased the car because it doesn't have hand holds, or lighted vanity mirrors, or cup holders in the back seat. Those people viewed those items as "must haves" and they were right not to buy the car because they would have been miserable. Others, like myself, may scratch our heads as to why certain things are not included, but feel the performance, beauty and environmental benefits of the car outweigh the "missing" items.
I wish you well on your search for a new car.
Purchasing a Tesla requires a small amount of patience and understanding that there are bugs or issues with the car and that Tesla is a new car company. No offense, but it doesn't sound like you have what i consider to be the requisite amount of patience that purchasing a Tesla requires. By your comments it seems that a bug or issue that i and perhaps others would find to be nothing more than a slight annoyance would really set you off. And given the intense media spotlight on Tesla, the last thing we need is for another person to go off on Tesla for items that i and others might find minor, but you would find major. I'm really trying not to be critical, as each person has their own level of comfort with these kinds of things. I'm sure some people have not purchased the car because it doesn't have hand holds, or lighted vanity mirrors, or cup holders in the back seat. Those people viewed those items as "must haves" and they were right not to buy the car because they would have been miserable. Others, like myself, may scratch our heads as to why certain things are not included, but feel the performance, beauty and environmental benefits of the car outweigh the "missing" items.
I wish you well on your search for a new car.
It's more like a 1 in 40,000 chance at this point (and that 1 is questionable, at best). As far as your points:
1) Maybe things weren't bad enough to invoke the lemon law until the suspicious fuse problems occurred.
2) Don't mistake Tesla Service's willingness to take the customer at his word and replace things that aren't actually broken as proof that there actually were defects. They could have easily returned the car after one day saying they couldn't replicate his problems and it certainly wouldn't have spent 66 days in service.
3) Certainly people with earlier cars had door handle problems but these have mostly resolved with the new handle design.
If you can find a perfect car that is guaranteed never to have a problem, then by all means you should purchase that car instead. Since that car does not exist, the next best thing would be to buy the best car ever with the best service for when things do go wrong. If montgom's lawsuit dissuades you from purchasing a Model S, I would say that you should ultimately be the angriest person at him on this thread.
When you invoked the lemon law, was the complaint against the dealer or the manufacturer?
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I'm sure Tesla will be devestated that another lemon law Plaintiff didn't buy their car.
And, if you think we're all sheep, you haven't read many threads here.
There's also irony in calling us all sheep then mentioning all the complaints about door handle problems - most of those complaints are on this forum. But most of us are also realists who want to stick our necks out and take a chance on a revolutionary new technology that is green. As with any new technology, if you don't have thick skin, and can't handle problems, then stay away. If you care about the future for the next generations and your own carbon footprint, and can work through problems without calling a lawyer, then welcome aboard.
Over a decade ago, I owned a Ford Expedition that was bought back by Ford under California Lemon Law. After about 1,500 miles, the check engine light started coming on for no reason at all. It was in for service eight separate times and each time they changed a fuse. On the last occasion, they changed the fuse and called to say it was ready for pickup. When I arrived, I started the car and no check engine light was on. As I was driving out of the service area, I heard a familiar ding, looked at the dash and the check engine light was on again. I never even got to leave the lot and they had to open an entirely new ticket. At that point, I was done. I contacted an attorney and within a short period of time, Ford agreed to buy back my Expedition as a goodwill gesture but following the rules of California Lemon Law. They made it as if the transaction had not happened with the exception of a slight deduction for the 1500 miles we drove before the problem first occurred. I later learned some auto manufacturers use the term goodwill gesture when buying lemons to keep from labeling the vehicle.
The next vehicle I purchased was a new Toyota Camry. It had a knocking noise coming from the engine when driving over 50 mph. I took the car in to every Toyota service in San Diego, some on multiple occasions trying to get the problem diagnosed and rectified. I ended up with service tickets that stated, "I hear a pinging but not a knocking. Problem can not be duplicated." Another stated, "I hear a dinging but no knocking, problem cannot be duplicated." There were others with similar jargon but no acknowledgement of the problem. I thought I was about to be in the unfortunate position of having to file a second lemon law case in less then a two year period. Finally my wife asked me to let her take the car in. My wife has a very low tolerance for BS and will usually say what's on her mind a little too bluntly, so I was worried. She called the dealership nearest our house and set an appointment with the service manager. I decided to go with her simply because I was sure the visit would be a lost cause. When we arrived at the dealership and met the service manager, she laid twelve service tickets on the counter in front of him. He read through them then said, "I am sorry but I don't see where we have been able to find a problem." With a straight face, she said I am shocked as you have tickets that say the car dings, pings, chunks, and several other things that a new car is not suppose to do above 50 mph. It seems that the problem has presented itself time and time again but has been ignored. I refuse to be ignored today, how to you plan to fix it. In the end, Toyota had to change the entire lower block of the engine.
My point of saying all this is I see a lot of people saying the OP is habitually using the lemon law when in reality there are only two lemon law claims mentioned. And although two lemon law claims may seem out of the ordinary, I know it can happen because I was almost in that position. If not for my wife taking a stand with the Toyota service department, I easily had a valid second lemon law claim.
The next vehicle I purchased was a new Toyota Camry. It had a knocking noise coming from the engine when driving over 50 mph. I took the car in to every Toyota service in San Diego, some on multiple occasions trying to get the problem diagnosed and rectified. I ended up with service tickets that stated, "I hear a pinging but not a knocking. Problem can not be duplicated." Another stated, "I hear a dinging but no knocking, problem cannot be duplicated." There were others with similar jargon but no acknowledgement of the problem. I thought I was about to be in the unfortunate position of having to file a second lemon law case in less then a two year period. Finally my wife asked me to let her take the car in. My wife has a very low tolerance for BS and will usually say what's on her mind a little too bluntly, so I was worried. She called the dealership nearest our house and set an appointment with the service manager. I decided to go with her simply because I was sure the visit would be a lost cause. When we arrived at the dealership and met the service manager, she laid twelve service tickets on the counter in front of him. He read through them then said, "I am sorry but I don't see where we have been able to find a problem." With a straight face, she said I am shocked as you have tickets that say the car dings, pings, chunks, and several other things that a new car is not suppose to do above 50 mph. It seems that the problem has presented itself time and time again but has been ignored. I refuse to be ignored today, how to you plan to fix it. In the end, Toyota had to change the entire lower block of the engine.
My point of saying all this is I see a lot of people saying the OP is habitually using the lemon law when in reality there are only two lemon law claims mentioned. And although two lemon law claims may seem out of the ordinary, I know it can happen because I was almost in that position. If not for my wife taking a stand with the Toyota service department, I easily had a valid second lemon law claim.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
You don't say if legal actions were actually commenced? If not, you have zero legal actions and the OP has two. I'm certain there are thousands of people who have worked out claims over bad vehicles with dealers/manufacturers without suing. You apparently did it twice. The OP didn't do it once. I don't see your situation like that of the OP at all. You sound reasonable and probably had a reasonable lawyer. The same cannot be said for the OP.
Hi, @SOCALS,
Understand & sympathize with your concerns.
I approached this vehicle as if I were an early adopter; therefore, willing to invest plenty of extra personal time into it. After owning it for 9 months, including through a reasonably snowy Boston winter, I am pleasantly surprised to report:
+ Yes, I did need to visit the service center for some issues. However, no issue was urgent and all visits were scheduled at my convenience. When the visit was going to be more than a little while, I received a Tesla Model S P85 loaner. Moreover, the issues were all ones that **in any other car I would have ignored!** Yes, ignored. Ignored in my Priuses, in my Sentra, in my Audi A4, in my VW Golf (oh my god that car needed attention), and all the others besides. I only bothered with these issues in the Tesla because I am so much in love with the car *and* with the service center and its staff that honestly it has been *fun* for me. Sick but true.
+ I have never experienced any of the horror stories that have cropped up from time to time in these forums. People who needed new drive motors, or their 12V batteries failed, or their main batteries failed, or what have you. After reading these forums for almost a year now, I have concluded that there is a VERY heavy selection bias going on. "I had a problem" stories are more common, and are explored in much greater depth, than "I had no problems" stories. And among the local Tesla owners I've hobnobbed with, the stories seem to be pretty minor.
+ I have had much worse experiences -- in time and dollars -- with some of my other cars. For instance, I'm not sure anyone in his right mind should own an Audi past its 4th year of life. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed and even loved my Audi every year until I parted with it in year 10, but years 5-10 were some darned expensive years indeed both in terms of time and dollars.
+ Experiencing Tesla service is a bit like being a kitten wrapped in the finest mink swaddling clothes, then fed the freshest milk and choicest meat tidbits. The service staff check in frequently to make sure that I'm still purring, and to dangle yarn in front of me to keep me entertained. I remember one incident where I happened to mention that my charging connection seemed a bit flaky. Within an hour or so, they "just happened" to remotely diagnose the car, then they said, hmmm, looks like the charging cable so we'll send you a whole new high-powered wall charger. Then they called me back **two days later** to say that they had been talking it over and would I mind terribly much bring the car by so that they could take a quick peek at all the car's in-vehicle charging hardware, just in case? They were still thinking about my car *after* the initial interaction and proposed resolution, which is completely foreign to my experience with Audi, Nissan, Toyota, etc. After they inspected the car, they decided that it really was the HPWC and the car was OK. By the time I picked the car up at the service center (they had given me a P85 loaner, as I scheduled the visit at my convenience and asked them to do a couple of other things besides), they had already loaded a new HPWC into the trunk. THEN, they started arguing with me about who would pay my electrician to install the new HPWC. The argument was because they INSISTED on paying and I INSISTED that *I* would pay. It went on for a good 10 minutes. But they couldn't win this argument, as there was no way I was going to let them pay at that point; they were already paying for a new HPWC. Then, on the way out, they sprinkled me with fairy dust and gave me fresh unicorn tears to drink. Metaphorically.
+ In the past 9 months, the ONLY money I have paid Tesla for service is $450 for a new nosecone. I had damaged my old one. True to form, they replaced it and "forgot" to charge me for labor. (I called up later to "complain", and after a lengthy argument, they still REFUSED to charge me for any labor. Yes, it's a quick item to change; but that doesn't mean it should be zero labor cost.) Oh, and that was on a Saturday. When they were having a barbecue for their customers, who could come by if they wanted to change their winter tires for summer tires.
+ I have wound up viewing my Tesla as a solid production vehicle, with quality on par with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi. Indeed, I'd argue that the quality level is on par with the best Japanese manufacturers, which I think is a bit better than what the German vehicles can do.
In sum, if you get a Tesla lemon, you will suffer but my experience leads me to predict that Tesla will be working with you night and day to resolve your problems. Even if it's *not* a lemon, you'll get excellent service!
Best of luck to you whatever decision you make!
Alan
P.S. I've already driven 12,700 miles so I'm definitely putting the car to use.
Understand & sympathize with your concerns.
I approached this vehicle as if I were an early adopter; therefore, willing to invest plenty of extra personal time into it. After owning it for 9 months, including through a reasonably snowy Boston winter, I am pleasantly surprised to report:
+ Yes, I did need to visit the service center for some issues. However, no issue was urgent and all visits were scheduled at my convenience. When the visit was going to be more than a little while, I received a Tesla Model S P85 loaner. Moreover, the issues were all ones that **in any other car I would have ignored!** Yes, ignored. Ignored in my Priuses, in my Sentra, in my Audi A4, in my VW Golf (oh my god that car needed attention), and all the others besides. I only bothered with these issues in the Tesla because I am so much in love with the car *and* with the service center and its staff that honestly it has been *fun* for me. Sick but true.
+ I have never experienced any of the horror stories that have cropped up from time to time in these forums. People who needed new drive motors, or their 12V batteries failed, or their main batteries failed, or what have you. After reading these forums for almost a year now, I have concluded that there is a VERY heavy selection bias going on. "I had a problem" stories are more common, and are explored in much greater depth, than "I had no problems" stories. And among the local Tesla owners I've hobnobbed with, the stories seem to be pretty minor.
+ I have had much worse experiences -- in time and dollars -- with some of my other cars. For instance, I'm not sure anyone in his right mind should own an Audi past its 4th year of life. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed and even loved my Audi every year until I parted with it in year 10, but years 5-10 were some darned expensive years indeed both in terms of time and dollars.
+ Experiencing Tesla service is a bit like being a kitten wrapped in the finest mink swaddling clothes, then fed the freshest milk and choicest meat tidbits. The service staff check in frequently to make sure that I'm still purring, and to dangle yarn in front of me to keep me entertained. I remember one incident where I happened to mention that my charging connection seemed a bit flaky. Within an hour or so, they "just happened" to remotely diagnose the car, then they said, hmmm, looks like the charging cable so we'll send you a whole new high-powered wall charger. Then they called me back **two days later** to say that they had been talking it over and would I mind terribly much bring the car by so that they could take a quick peek at all the car's in-vehicle charging hardware, just in case? They were still thinking about my car *after* the initial interaction and proposed resolution, which is completely foreign to my experience with Audi, Nissan, Toyota, etc. After they inspected the car, they decided that it really was the HPWC and the car was OK. By the time I picked the car up at the service center (they had given me a P85 loaner, as I scheduled the visit at my convenience and asked them to do a couple of other things besides), they had already loaded a new HPWC into the trunk. THEN, they started arguing with me about who would pay my electrician to install the new HPWC. The argument was because they INSISTED on paying and I INSISTED that *I* would pay. It went on for a good 10 minutes. But they couldn't win this argument, as there was no way I was going to let them pay at that point; they were already paying for a new HPWC. Then, on the way out, they sprinkled me with fairy dust and gave me fresh unicorn tears to drink. Metaphorically.
+ In the past 9 months, the ONLY money I have paid Tesla for service is $450 for a new nosecone. I had damaged my old one. True to form, they replaced it and "forgot" to charge me for labor. (I called up later to "complain", and after a lengthy argument, they still REFUSED to charge me for any labor. Yes, it's a quick item to change; but that doesn't mean it should be zero labor cost.) Oh, and that was on a Saturday. When they were having a barbecue for their customers, who could come by if they wanted to change their winter tires for summer tires.
+ I have wound up viewing my Tesla as a solid production vehicle, with quality on par with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi. Indeed, I'd argue that the quality level is on par with the best Japanese manufacturers, which I think is a bit better than what the German vehicles can do.
In sum, if you get a Tesla lemon, you will suffer but my experience leads me to predict that Tesla will be working with you night and day to resolve your problems. Even if it's *not* a lemon, you'll get excellent service!
Best of luck to you whatever decision you make!
Alan
P.S. I've already driven 12,700 miles so I'm definitely putting the car to use.
NigelM
Recovering Member
How about we put the pitchforks away? Just because one person says they did need a lawyer once to resolve a case, it doesn't automatically mean we have to rally a lynch-mob. No matter what anyone thinks of the example that started this thread it's not sensible to automatically assume that everyone who ever hired a lawyer is bad and their complaint unjustified.
Hi, @SOCALS,
Understand & sympathize with your concerns.
I approached this vehicle as if I were an early adopter; therefore, willing to invest plenty of extra personal time into it. After owning it for 9 months, including through a reasonably snowy Boston winter, I am pleasantly surprised to report:
+ Yes, I did need to visit the service center for some issues. However, no issue was urgent and all visits were scheduled at my convenience. When the visit was going to be more than a little while, I received a Tesla Model S P85 loaner. Moreover, the issues were all ones that **in any other car I would have ignored!** Yes, ignored. Ignored in my Priuses, in my Sentra, in my Audi A4, in my VW Golf (oh my god that car needed attention), and all the others besides. I only bothered with these issues in the Tesla because I am so much in love with the car *and* with the service center and its staff that honestly it has been *fun* for me. Sick but true.
+ Experiencing Tesla service is a bit like being a kitten wrapped in the finest mink swaddling clothes, then fed the freshest milk and choicest meat tidbits. The service staff check in frequently to make sure that I'm still purring, and to dangle yarn in front of me to keep me entertained. I remember one incident where I happened to mention that my charging connection seemed a bit flaky. Within an hour or so, they "just happened" to remotely diagnose the car, then they said, hmmm, looks like the charging cable so we'll send you a whole new high-powered wall charger. Then they called me back **two days later** to say that they had been talking it over and would I mind terribly much bring the car by so that they could take a quick peek at all the car's in-vehicle charging hardware, just in case? They were still thinking about my car *after* the initial interaction and proposed resolution, which is completely foreign to my experience with Audi, Nissan, Toyota, etc. After they inspected the car, they decided that it really was the HPWC and the car was OK. By the time I picked the car up at the service center (they had given me a P85 loaner, as I scheduled the visit at my convenience and asked them to do a couple of other things besides), they had already loaded a new HPWC into the trunk. THEN, they started arguing with me about who would pay my electrician to install the new HPWC. The argument was because they INSISTED on paying and I INSISTED that *I* would pay. It went on for a good 10 minutes. But they couldn't win this argument, as there was no way I was going to let them pay at that point; they were already paying for a new HPWC. Then, on the way out, they sprinkled me with fairy dust and gave me fresh unicorn tears to drink. Metaphorically.
This is a great way to put it. And while that may apply to a small percentage of people, I agree it is something fun to see what the service people are doing and chat with them. Their passion for the job shows through. I never enjoyed going to go to get my VW or Volvo serviced before at the dealership before.
You should submit "You will be treated like a kitten wrapped in the finest mink swaddling clothes, then fed the freshest milk and choicest meat tidbits" as the tag line for Tesla Service and see what they say.
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I agree with less of
