Tesla Model 3 vs Model S comparison slides

[SageBrush]

I would say a Performance D Model 3 with EAP/FSD will probably be a very competitive car compared to the current Model S

False choice.

And anyway, 'luxury' has always been a moving target. Size, EV range and 0-60 times aside, I think we will always find in the 'S'

• more foam in the seat
• more options. Like air suspension and fancy wheels today
• more expensive materials in the cabin.
• coddling at the service center
• perks. See: free SC use
• first appearance of new technology. Elon said so.

 

[PhantomX]

Agreed. Model 3 and Model S doesn't have big enough differentiation like 3 series vs. 5 series or C class vs E class. In the case of BMW and MB, the 5 and E are clearly the more luxurious vehicles compare to the smaller sized 3 and C. They are typically more comfortable, better materials, and better technology, in addition to bigger size.

The problem I see with S and X is that their interior is really not comparable to similar priced vehicles. They sell well right now, but that's because they are the only options when one wants a good electric car or SUV. But I suspect Model 3 will be the biggest competitor to Model S, just like you are saying. Tesla will really need to make S feels and looks like a high end luxury car if they want a mass volume of people to continue spending $100k for the S once model 3 backlog is cleared.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

False choice.

And anyway, 'luxury' has always been a moving target. Size, EV range and 0-60 times aside, I think we will always find in the 'S'

• more foam in the seat
• more options. Like air suspension and fancy wheels today
• more expensive materials in the cabin.
• coddling at the service center
• perks. See: free SC use
• first appearance of new technology. Elon said so.

But it is not a false choice, if it is a real comparison many people will make. I would bet quite a few people will be comparing a Performance Model 3 D vs. a Model S... Heck, there are people who will compare base Model 3 and Model S, because there are so few BEV options to choose between.

Do you really think Model S sales hurting from Model 3 (after all, Elon said so), is merely down to confusion? That people prefer to wait for Model 3 simply because they think it is "version 3"? I'm not so sure. I think a lot of people - myself included - are waiting to see if it works for them better than some other BEV. Model 3 is hurting Model S sales in many of these cases. After all, people have upgraded to Model S from a Prius. Such crowd might well consider a Model 3 instead...

Obivously at this state I think it is a matter of opinion and speculation, so we are sure to agree to disagree, but to clarify my position I am not sure any of the things you list matter that much, given that Model S is not a very luxurious car. Unless that changes, of course. Interior comfort and materials remains to be seen. Model 3 might even be better in some regards, given that it is newer and Model S is aging. That big wood on the dash looks very nice IMO. Lack of second screen and hatchback are of course much discussed downsides, so those matter to those for whom they matter - they will not stop a volume success, though, as said.

Wheels are of no consideration, people can get wheels later. I mean, it isn't like Model S/X has a great selection of wheels anyway, they just made the selection smaller - basically turbine variations... Air suspension I wouldn't be surprised if we see on the Model 3 for Performance edition anyway. Perks are not so interesting once the price difference is tens of thousands...
Interior options on Model S/X have gotten only less and less over time... I mean, the problem for Tesla is that Model S hardly is an Audi A8 or an S Class in comforts, even though it has a similar price. Heck, I might consider a Performance D Model 3 rather than a Model S were I in the market for that choice (from any other perspective than the hatchback question)...

This may well be one of the reasons Model S retains the hatchback and Model 3 not. It gives one tangible benefit to the more expensive car, in addition to performance. Other than that, Tesla really would be wise to improve Model S/X considerably to make them more lucrative compared to Model 3. Just anti-selling Model 3 is probably not a good idea going forward...

So, for Tesla's sake, let's really hope they step up Model S/X...

 

[dsvick]

I think a lot of people - myself included - are waiting to see if it works for them better than some other BEV.

I'd venture to say that the vast majority of it simply comes down to price. For a BEV in the $35K range there is only the Bolt and the model 3. If price isn't an issue then you open it up to include the model S and X and at that point, if size isn't a concern, then they'd be silly not to get an S or X since they are arguably better cars. Most of the reservationist though I'm betting are more price constrained though and really have no choice.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'd venture to say that the vast majority of it simply comes down to price. For a BEV in the $35K range there is only the Bolt and the model 3. If price isn't an issue then you open it up to include the model S and X and at that point, if size isn't a concern, then they'd be silly not to get an S or X since they are arguably better cars. Most of the reservationist though I'm betting are more price constrained though and really have no choice.

For a lot of people it certainly comes down to price, sure. But that will include some Model S buyers as well that may have previously stretched or considered stretching to a low-end Model S - i.e. those people coming from a Prius to Model S, which is one real demographic... I could see them rather going to Model 3 in many cases.

But size can well be a concern too. Not everyone wants a big car. Hatchback-issue aside, the Model 3 is more appealing to myself as well in that sense, more than a Model S - especially if the latter is not offering significant luxury in comparison to the former (e.g. Audi A8/S Class massage seats kind of stuff). Model S of course has the hatchback, though, which is a big bonus for it.

I can certainly see a significant bleed from Model S to Model 3 happening. We shall see. For Q2 the Free Supercharging will probably help Tesla some.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

But it is not a false choice, if it is a real comparison many people will make. I would bet quite a few people will be comparing a Performance Model 3 D vs. a Model S... Heck, there are people who will compare base Model 3 and Model S, because there are so few BEV options to choose between.

Do you really think Model S sales hurting from Model 3 (after all, Elon said so), is merely down to confusion? That people prefer to wait for Model 3 simply because they think it is "version 3"? I'm not so sure. I think a lot of people - myself included - are waiting to see if it works for them better than some other BEV. Model 3 is hurting Model S sales in many of these cases. After all, people have upgraded to Model S from a Prius. Such crowd might well consider a Model 3 instead...

Obivously at this state I think it is a matter of opinion and speculation, so we are sure to agree to disagree, but to clarify my position I am not sure any of the things you list matter that much, given that Model S is not a very luxurious car. Unless that changes, of course. Interior comfort and materials remains to be seen. Model 3 might even be better in some regards, given that it is newer and Model S is aging. That big wood on the dash looks very nice IMO. Lack of second screen and hatchback are of course much discussed downsides, so those matter to those for whom they matter - they will not stop a volume success, though, as said.

Wheels are of no consideration, people can get wheels later. I mean, it isn't like Model S/X has a great selection of wheels anyway, they just made the selection smaller - basically turbine variations... Air suspension I wouldn't be surprised if we see on the Model 3 for Performance edition anyway. Perks are not so interesting once the price difference is tens of thousands...
Interior options on Model S/X have gotten only less and less over time... I mean, the problem for Tesla is that Model S hardly is an Audi A8 or an S Class in comforts, even though it has a similar price. Heck, I might consider a Performance D Model 3 rather than a Model S were I in the market for that choice (from any other perspective than the hatchback question)...

This may well be one of the reasons Model S retains the hatchback and Model 3 not. It gives one tangible benefit to the more expensive car, in addition to performance. Other than that, Tesla really would be wise to improve Model S/X considerably to make them more lucrative compared to Model 3. Just anti-selling Model 3 is probably not a good idea going forward...

So, for Tesla's sake, let's really hope they step up Model S/X...

While I agree with all of your points, the "S" and "X" will never bring in the revenue that the Model 3 will once production is up and running. Tesla needs to be sure the Model 3 is right. The company is probably literally betting on it. The S and X will continue to be the flagships of the line but not nearly as important as the 3 financially in my opinion.

Dan

 

[JeffK]

I would bet quite a few people will be comparing a Performance Model 3 D vs. a Model S... Heck, there are people who will compare base Model 3 and Model S, because there are so few BEV options to choose between.

I'd venture to say that the vast majority of it simply comes down to price....
Most of the reservationist though I'm betting are more price constrained though and really have no choice.

But size can well be a concern too. Not everyone wants a big car.

You've both described my situation.

I want the performance model and am comparing it to the P100D. Purchasing for both performance and the fact that it's an EV.

The Model S won't really be easy to park in my garage due the design of the garage. The P100D is wildly outside my price range so I'm simply hoping for the quickest, most awesome, car in the performance Model 3 price range assuming sane prices.

Even though the Model S P100D is an impossibility, it's what I'll be benchmarking the performance Model 3 against.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

While I agree with all of your points, the "S" and "X" will never bring in the revenue that the Model 3 will once production is up and running. Tesla needs to be sure the Model 3 is right. The company is probably literally betting on it. The S and X will continue to be the flagships of the line but not nearly as important as the 3 financially in my opinion.

Dan

Definitely.

The challenge I'm describing for Tesla is the transition. None of this matters when Model 3 is shipping 500k a year.

But it matters while Model 3 is shipping 10-100k a year and is not yet making ramped-up premiums.

 

[sitter_k]

Make the model s better not the model 3 crappy'er

 

[gregincal]

I'm not so sure, in the end.

I actually think Model S vs. Model 3 will be a much closer fight than some think in the foreseeable future. Tesla has to work really, really hard on making Model S a real luxury car, if they intend to separate it from Model 3 on anything other than size and performance.

For now, both are looking to be - really - rather basic premium cars in different sizes, with two special things: equal software innovation (e.g. autopilot and upgrades) and EV drivetrain throwing punches at each other (better performance vs. better 21-70 battery).

I would say a Performance D Model 3 with EAP/FSD will probably be a very competitive car compared to the current Model S, unless you need the size or that last inch of performance.

And that will be a problem for Tesla, until they can ramp-up Model 3 to take Model S's place as the moneymaker.

Don't forget range, which is huge when evaluating EVs. That actually could swing me to a new S from the 3. An S100 will definitely have more range than a 3-75. That along with the much greater storage makes it a superior road trip car (superchargers only do so much when you want to explore back roads).

 

[JeffK]

Don't forget range, which is huge when evaluating EVs. That actually could swing me to a new S from the 3. An S100 will definitely have more range than a 3-75. That along with the much greater storage makes it a superior road trip car (superchargers only do so much when you want to explore back roads).

I'm thinking the range difference in the S100D vs the 3 75D will be 10-20 miles max.

 

[Garlan Garner]

When Elon stated the capacity of the Model 3.....was he talking about the 2170's or the 18650's when he said "Current cell/module energy Density"?

Elon Musk on Twitter

 

[JeffK]

When Elon stated the capacity of the Model 3.....was he talking about the 2170's or the 18650's when he said "Current cell/module energy Density"?

Elon Musk on Twitter

Haha see, I'm not quite sure but it's generally assumed he was talking about 2170's which is unfortunate.

 

[shrspeedblade]

We've already seen a significant improvement in features and interior quality with Model S, and I suspect (and certainly hope) we will continue to see that. They need to move it more "upmarket" not only to differentiate with from Model 3 but to also compete effectively with the high end EVs that are allegedly coming out in a couple of years if what other automakers are saying is true.

An advantage they have here is as the volume expands due to Model 3, the "power source" it shares with Model S will get cheaper and they can roll that savings into a better Model S/X that attracts higher end buyers not just because it's an EV.

In their defense, it's easy to forget that Tesla as a car company has only really been around about 5 years. What they've accomplished in that time is astounding when you consider they just entered an industry where companies that have been around for half a century or longer are struggling to survive.

 

[gregincal]

I'm thinking the range difference in the S100D vs the 3 75D will be 10-20 miles max.

If the Model 3 75D has an EPA range of 315 miles, I'll be very very happy. That would be a huge boost from my current 265 EPA with my old S85 (I actually have only dropped to 259 after 4 1/2 years).

 

[R.S]

Haha see, I'm not quite sure but it's generally assumed he was talking about 2170's which is unfortunate.

I don't think it's unfortunate. Tesla surely could have fit a bigger battery, but they decided not to do so.

I think a 75D will have plenty range and I doubt Tesla would have many more customers, if they had a 85D instead. As long as it breaks the 300 mile barrier, it will be enough.

Tesla will keep increasing capacity over the years, just to make people buy a new one every so often, but 75kWh sounds like a good point to start from. If it really has 75kWh net capacity, it would only have 6.5 kWh less, than the original S 85.

 

[Zaphod]

We've already seen a significant improvement in features and interior quality with Model S, and I suspect (and certainly hope) we will continue to see that. They need to move it more "upmarket" not only to differentiate with from Model 3 but to also compete effectively with the high end EVs that are allegedly coming out in a couple of years if what other automakers are saying is true.

An advantage they have here is as the volume expands due to Model 3, the "power source" it shares with Model S will get cheaper and they can roll that savings into a better Model S/X that attracts higher end buyers not just because it's an EV.

In their defense, it's easy to forget that Tesla as a car company has only really been around about 5 years. What they've accomplished in that time is astounding when you consider they just entered an industry where companies that have been around for half a century or longer are struggling to survive.

Not sure I would say significant improvement has happened in features and interior quality. Improvement, yes, but far from significant in my opinion. What has really changed with the S interior? Seats have evolved and center console was added, which for some is not an improvement. Other than that, not much else has changed that I can think of, unless I am missing something.

 

[habanero69]

Not sure I would say significant improvement has happened in features and interior quality. Improvement, yes, but far from significant in my opinion. What has really changed with the S interior? Seats have evolved and center console was added, which for some is not an improvement. Other than that, not much else has changed that I can think of, unless I am missing something.

^^^^^^^ This.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Not sure I would say significant improvement has happened in features and interior quality. Improvement, yes, but far from significant in my opinion. What has really changed with the S interior? Seats have evolved and center console was added, which for some is not an improvement. Other than that, not much else has changed that I can think of, unless I am missing something.

Yeah, some things are worse: Model S interior trim options are less today than they were before and ventilated seats are gone...

What has improved? Steering wheel heating and front seats, instrument cluster screen has improved once, center console added as mentioned...

Tesla doesn't exactly have a great track-record in improving Model S/X interiors... They are rather mediocre.

 

[dhanson865]

Semi may have 6 or more of these motors.

The semi has 3 axles, conventional semis drive the wheels on 2 of the 3 axles. Tesla/Elon has previously said they wouldn't do cars with a motor at each wheel. That leaves you with a max of 3 motors (one per axle) and an option of using less.

For details start around Tesla Semi post 214.

For those wondering why the Semi is being mentioned in a Model 3 discussion it's because Elon said in the most recent conference call that the Semi will use Model 3 parts to keep costs down.