So your comment was just meant to be a totally vague statement, about what you think Elon Musk is and I am not even allowed to read anything into it, much less get an answer to my question?
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So your comment was just meant to be a totally vague statement, about what you think Elon Musk is and I am not even allowed to read anything into it, much less get an answer to my question?
Canuck
Well-Known Member
It's funny how we try to break down every little thing Tesla tells us, then they just move the goal posts on us. Of course, the Model 3 will come out with more configurations than in that graph but just not initially.
The D and P versions will not be built first -- only the basic ones. So they are playing games with us by just using the first ones that roll off the line since they will have few options -- which we know by the 0-60 time and range on the graph.
If there's one thing we all should have learned by now is never believe the surface of Tesla's marketing without digging deeper. They are slick when it comes to trying to push as many S's out the door as they can, especially before the P3D comes to market.
The D and P versions will not be built first -- only the basic ones. So they are playing games with us by just using the first ones that roll off the line since they will have few options -- which we know by the 0-60 time and range on the graph.
If there's one thing we all should have learned by now is never believe the surface of Tesla's marketing without digging deeper. They are slick when it comes to trying to push as many S's out the door as they can, especially before the P3D comes to market.
OutofPocket
Member
Don't read so much into this sheet. It is just a sellsheet for the model S
Teslarati needs this:
Average person will not be able to tell S from 3 on the road.
3 battery and cooling technology upstages S
Nexgen structural engineering
Similar passenger space 3 & S
Clean shaven
Half price
Teslarati needs this:
Average person will not be able to tell S from 3 on the road.
3 battery and cooling technology upstages S
Nexgen structural engineering
Similar passenger space 3 & S
Clean shaven
Half price
Last edited by a moderator:
I kind of like the new brutally honest @Canuck.
Tesla is really as bad as he makes it sound, probably.
Leaf is a hatchback. I have it and the S and the interior cabin of the Leaf is almost as big as the S (seating area not counting rear facing). S is just wider. It seems the 3 is very small and will compare in some ways poorly to bigger hatchback cars. The LEAF has its issues but interior room and storage was never an issue (even with a motor and drivetrain placement like an ICE).
Nevermind, that was apparently inaccurate information from 2017 Nissan LEAF Electric Car Specs - the 2013+ leaf has 13cu.ft or 370l of trunk capacity according to wikipedia.
What? From Nissan:
Cargo volume with rear seat up (cu. ft.): 23.6
Cargo volume with rear seat down (cu. ft.): 30.0
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think you are just seeing different ways to rate the space. In Europe the official rating is 370L, which probably is counting only the space below parcel shelf.
Design Nissan LEAF - Electric Car - Hatchback | Nissan
In USA it probably counts above, leading to a higher rating for hatchbacks (sedans won't see the same difference, given parcel shelf area can't be counted).
Indeed. I had come to the same conclusion in the meanwhile. Model 3 of course having no such upwards benefit for its 14 cu ft as a sedan.
I hate to repeat myself on this one but really, too bad about no hatchback. Too bad.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I'm still the same old moose as I've always been.
Unlike some folks around here, I can give Tesla credit when they've earned it, and also kick them in the arse when they deserve it.
Like most things in life, Tesla is not all good or all bad. So you'll still be hearing me come down on the "Tesla is all bad" folks.
I guess given the overall length of the car, long wheelbase and cabin displacement towards the front and general shape I'd expect something more along the lines of BMW 3/4 Gran Coupe rather than the sily standard sedan variants, even without the somewhat pointless hatch.
All advertising is spin. You point out the positives while you don't point out the negatives. Tesla is a business first. It might have long term very noble goals but it still has to compete in the business world where business is done in certain ways. I expect Tesla to be better at some things and worse at others but overall trying to do their best. I fully expect the company to upsell to their currently selling more expensive vehicle. None of that do I consider unethical.
I personally never expected the Model 3 to be a "less expensive" Model S. So far Tesla has met my expectations. I am surprised that Tesla is coming out with a minimal version of the 3 before it came out with a fully loaded version. Though I can understand that some of the more complex additions will be added later in the rush to get the car to production. I see this as the anti-Model X design mentality. There the opposite happened. I fully expect, and don't think it is misleading at all, that the Model 3 will show lots of improvement and better statistics as time passes. The same thing happened with the Model S, Model X, and Roadster.
So, for me, it seems that Tesla (and Elon) had a dilemma to either: take more time to fully develop the Model 3 or come out with it much more quickly and limit development and move forward with the basic promised vehicle. Either way they would make someone upset because there is no way to please everyone. As far as I can tell they are trying to do their best. It is far from perfect but it isn't too bad. That's JMHO on the subject.
And I will grant you that I will probably gain by what Tesla is doing. I will probably get my vehicle under the wire for the $7500 tax credit because they are willing to let minimal cars out first. For someone wanting a fully loaded, dual motor, with performance chops Model 3, they will probably lose out on the tax credit.
Or they need it to convince people like you, that the Model 3 really isn't an improved Model S for halve the price.
Of course they don't market the 3 to it's full potential, it isn't even out yet and they have way too many reservations already. But they won't stop selling the S, when the 3 is out. They will probably upgrade the battery, maybe even the motors and inverters, but that's it, the S will still be a lot better, but also a lot more expensive.
I think they need the sheet to show potential S customers, that they can't just wait halve a year, to get the same thing for halve the price, which they actually won't. The current Model S's biggest upstage will be the Model S of December 2017, not the Model 3.
@Grendal On the ethics of advertising I guess it is best to agree to disagree.
Over on the I-Pace discussion (Getting seriously tempted by the i-Pace) I made the point that all large-battery BEVs, especially from the premium brands, will be in competition for the foreseeable future due to their limited numbers.
Model S (and X) have been the only game in town for so long that they have been attracting customers from a wide range of car classes and price points.
The notion that the customers have selected the car for its size, price and features may well be quite wrong. Many have selected it because there was nothing else.
Model 3 will definitely be Model S's biggest competitor. Which may well be the real reason why Tesla seems to be starting with a rather lowkey version and made it a sedan instead of Model S's hatchback...
Over on the I-Pace discussion (Getting seriously tempted by the i-Pace) I made the point that all large-battery BEVs, especially from the premium brands, will be in competition for the foreseeable future due to their limited numbers.
Model S (and X) have been the only game in town for so long that they have been attracting customers from a wide range of car classes and price points.
The notion that the customers have selected the car for its size, price and features may well be quite wrong. Many have selected it because there was nothing else.
Model 3 will definitely be Model S's biggest competitor. Which may well be the real reason why Tesla seems to be starting with a rather lowkey version and made it a sedan instead of Model S's hatchback...
OutofPocket
Member
Of course I also love the S and hope it continues to advance as you suggest...it has to.
I was in the process of buying an S when the 3 was announced. My Telsa sales advisor said "smaller version of the S at a lower price but you need to wait 12+ months...do you really want to wait that long?".
I was OK with pulling the trigger, but my wife said no way you are going to buy an S now. So I waited in line at the Tesla Stanford Shopping Center store and reserved a 3. The S vs. 3 interplay is fascinating to watch...this will be the greatest case study ever!
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
The Model 'S' is a luxury car and the Model 3 is not.
I'm a bit embarrassed that I almost bought into the TMC distortion field.
I do agree though that the first iteration of the Model 3 will be pretty vanilla. We just have to avoid the pendulum swing in sentiment from too optimistic to too pessimistic.
I'm a bit embarrassed that I almost bought into the TMC distortion field.
I do agree though that the first iteration of the Model 3 will be pretty vanilla. We just have to avoid the pendulum swing in sentiment from too optimistic to too pessimistic.
I'm not so sure, in the end.
I actually think Model S vs. Model 3 will be a much closer fight than some think in the foreseeable future. Tesla has to work really, really hard on making Model S a real luxury car, if they intend to separate it from Model 3 on anything other than size and performance.
For now, both are looking to be - really - rather basic premium cars in different sizes, with two special things: equal software innovation (e.g. autopilot and upgrades) and EV drivetrain throwing punches at each other (better performance vs. better 21-70 battery).
I would say a Performance D Model 3 with EAP/FSD will probably be a very competitive car compared to the current Model S, unless you need the size or that last inch of performance.
And that will be a problem for Tesla, until they can ramp-up Model 3 to take Model S's place as the moneymaker.
