Tesla needs to refresh the Model S, asap.

[pete8314]

I'm with others on this thread, my current (AP1, facelift) Model S is 3 years old in May, and I think it's due a refresh internally, and some tweaks outside. If they wait for Audi & co to get to market, they've waited too long, Tesla's biggest advantage they have is being the first-mover (including the Supercharger network).

Just before Xmas I was so close to trading my P90D for a P3D, and I think that's the issue Tesla has with existing owners, the lines between the premium 3's and Model S are too blurred. Outside of the Tesla ecosystem, the new target market for Model S/X are people coming from Audi A7, BMW 5 etc etc, and they have a certain expectation of interior build quality and features. I'm not suggesting for a second that they add a bunch of buttons, but there's clearly a lack of a 'premium' aesthetic inside the S/X.

In my view, Tesla did almost everything right with the S in 2012; the engineering is rock solid, the UI is/was revolutionary and setting the pace for other brands. They had to get the engineering right to survive, it's the foundation, and can't be easily fixed down the road. But the interior was built with fairly basic parts, because Tesla had no clout at the time to get the good stuff. It's time for them to go back and fix that, and provide a clearer separation between Model lines, and better comparisons to the other premium brands.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

SO many advancements in Model 3 that Model S/X lack. There is no way I'd be buying an old, outdated Model S/X design and paying a ludicrous price for 7 year old technology. Test drove a brand new P100D the other day... Turning on the AC caused steering rack to vibrate. Nope.

 

[Lifeinabox]

I'm with others on this thread, my current (AP1, facelift) Model S is 3 years old in May, and I think it's due a refresh internally, and some tweaks outside. If they wait for Audi & co to get to market, they've waited too long, Tesla's biggest advantage they have is being the first-mover (including the Supercharger network).

Just before Xmas I was so close to trading my P90D for a P3D, and I think that's the issue Tesla has with existing owners, the lines between the premium 3's and Model S are too blurred. Outside of the Tesla ecosystem, the new target market for Model S/X are people coming from Audi A7, BMW 5 etc etc, and they have a certain expectation of interior build quality and features. I'm not suggesting for a second that they add a bunch of buttons, but there's clearly a lack of a 'premium' aesthetic inside the S/X.

In my view, Tesla did almost everything right with the S in 2012; the engineering is rock solid, the UI is/was revolutionary and setting the pace for other brands. They had to get the engineering right to survive, it's the foundation, and can't be easily fixed down the road. But the interior was built with fairly basic parts, because Tesla had no clout at the time to get the good stuff. It's time for them to go back and fix that, and provide a clearer separation between Model lines, and better comparisons to the other premium brands.

So they entice you to move to a new high margin and mass production vehicle. What’s wrong with that? I think it’s fine timing ssuming a 3rd quarter refresh. I wouldn’t want to own a refreshed S anyhow that was rushed through production competing for resources with the 3 ramp up. Talk about potential QC nightmares.

 

[maximizese]

In my opinion, mild upgrades and updates would make the most sense. Battery tech, efficiency, and subtle style/layout changes could entice current MS owners to buy the newer version. However, too drastic a change would sink the resale value of the older MS. Some people find the value of the MS in its utility; great commuter/touring car with lots of storage space with a both a fun factor and tech factor that was and still is quite advanced. Others focus more on the technology factor and want the latest and greatest no matter the cost. I liken the latter to the "model-up" iPhone fans. The phones from 4 generations ago are still perfectly useable for most needs, but the bells and whistles of a new model is too enticing.

Small changes like what Mazda does with the Miata or what Jeep does with the Wrangler is quite impressive. Both vehicles are somewhat the same after decades and fulfill the same utility. Their values hold up on the secondary market and yet they still attract people to buy the new model.

In my opinion, the new MS should retain its overall shape (like what Porsche does), but change a few contours, move the seats further back behind the doors (front seatback should be right at the B-pillar, rear seatback should be 2-3" behind its current configuration), add more luxury features found in the $60K-$120K competition, next-gen battery, >200kW SC, and try to keep the price between 15-25% of the current MS...then lower the price for subsequent years as production scales up and costs go down. Maybe even drop a few features to make those early production years special.

 

[AMPd]

So they entice you to move to a new high margin and mass production vehicle. What’s wrong with that? I think it’s fine timing ssuming a 3rd quarter refresh. I wouldn’t want to own a refreshed S anyhow that was rushed through production competing for resources with the 3 ramp up. Talk about potential QC nightmares.

QC nightmares? As opposed to current QC wet dreams?

QC currently is nothing to write home about.

 

[evster]

Model S really needs updated rear led-lights. They look very dated compared with X and 3 design. The back end will probably get an update very soon, also to allow for CCS-size charge port in Europe. They can't roll out Model 3 in Europe with CCS without giving the Model S and X the same convenience. I would never ever buy a new S or X in Europe right now and get the car with the old chargeport that doesn't comply with the new and growing standard.

 

[bob_p]

On another thread, it was reported Musk stated they are not planning to use 2170 batteries for the S/X - so that could mean there will not be a new pack for the S/X. And since Tesla(Musk) talked about V3 supercharging before the 100 packs were built, that might (hopefully) mean the 100 packs will support the faster V3 supercharging, which could be another reason why they discontinued the 75 packs.

 

[ucmndd]

Model S really needs updated rear led-lights. They look very dated compared with X and 3 design. The back end will probably get an update very soon, also to allow for CCS-size charge port in Europe. They can't roll out Model 3 in Europe with CCS without giving the Model S and X the same convenience.

They’ve been pretty clear they’re fixing this with an adapter, not a redesign.

 

[evster]

They’ve been pretty clear they’re fixing this with an adapter, not a redesign.

Not sure that is possible with an adapter with regards to charging speeds and potential limitations. It would probably not be possible with CCS2 for an adapter and it would most likely be CCS1 which is 80kW max charging speeds.

It would also feel awkward to pay full price for a brand spanking new S or X and don't get CCS when all new Model 3 in Europe get that. Buying a used Model S/X and using adapter will of course be another thing and that is perfectly fine.

 

[Lifeinabox]

QC nightmares? As opposed to current QC wet dreams?

QC currently is nothing to write home about.

Exactly. Scary to think it can get worse!

 

[SeminoleFSU]

What do you think their top 3 priorities should be?

0. Fix CUSTOMER SERVICE, Quality Control, critical business processes, COMMUNICATION!
1. Model Y. Compact SUVs are the largest growing segment of new cars
2. Model T?? Truck (non-semi)
3. Roadster 2.0
---------
Once those are done:
4. Model S/X refresh (although changing the MS tail lights to match X/3 should happen ASAP)
5. Semi (although I'm still skeptical this is wise product line at all... requires entirely new charging infrastructure =$$$$)
6. Whatever else...

 

[mvotb]

If the problem is people on the fence contemplating a refresh, the simple solution is announce no major refresh for years. The car exterior looks fine to me, and only could use some minor improvements. I could trade up now, but won't because, of existing things that don't work properly, V9, wipers, PHONE, music, and as others have said some interior quality upgrades.

 

[sandpiper]

Model S really needs updated rear led-lights. They look very dated compared with X and 3 design. The back end will probably get an update very soon, also to allow for CCS-size charge port in Europe. They can't roll out Model 3 in Europe with CCS without giving the Model S and X the same convenience. I would never ever buy a new S or X in Europe right now and get the car with the old chargeport that doesn't comply with the new and growing standard.

Yep... I'm on the same page with you.

I saw some renderings posted a bit ago that made it look like the existing quarter panel substructure already allows for this. To put the larger doors on requires an update in the outer skin stampings.

 

[SMAlset]

On another thread, it was reported Musk stated they are not planning to use 2170 batteries for the S/X - so that could mean there will not be a new pack for the S/X. And since Tesla(Musk) talked about V3 supercharging before the 100 packs were built, that might (hopefully) mean the 100 packs will support the faster V3 supercharging, which could be another reason why they discontinued the 75 packs.

Musk followed that comment on the 2170s up with something like “couldn’t say more about this right now”. Doesn’t mean when they’re ready to do a new refresh with components that they won’t have some other battery design which would be an improvement over the 2170s ready to go into production.

 

[dfwatt]

Although the drop in model S/X demand can be attributed to buyers opting for the model 3. I think it’s buyers who are waiting for a refresh.
Besides the front fascia update and slight rear bumper difference along with seat changes, the model s is very much like the 2012 model

I think there are many people waiting for a new model s, a redisigned S (sic).
It’s been over 6 years!

Somewhere between six and eight years is the typical product cycle in the premium sedan market. There are a whole lot of interesting questions though about where they might go with a redesigned S: 1) Even more performance; 2) modest weight loss without interior or exterior size penalty to get its handling a little bit closer to the Model 3; 3) better interior; 4) significant bump in range – I know they're not planning on using the 2170 cell for the current 2019 Model S but I have to believe that cell would be in any redesigned S or an even better cell; 5) Permanent magnet motor in the rear to get some efficiency gains. 6) Who knows what else but Tesla is never short of surprises or innovation.

Obviously the Model Y is going to suck down much of their design Man-hours and talent over the coming year, and what's left over will easily be eaten up by the Roadster, the Semi-, and the Pickup. But after they're done with those I think they will turn their attention to redesigning their flagship sedan. It can't continue as a flagship and premium priced product when in many ways the Model 3 is now the better car – at least to drive. I'm sure they're going to incorporate the systems and circuit board integration that they achieved in the Model 3 in any redesigned model S. Bottom line – model S fans have to be patient. After all we waited over two years for the Model 3. And it was certainly worth the wait.

 

[jgs]

Presumably OP is referring entirely to aesthetics when talking about a refresh, because while the body style hasn't changed much (apart from the fascia and a few smaller updates) and the interior hasn't either (console instead of yacht floor, alas, and some vanity mirrors, seats revved a few times, and many other small things, but still much the same as ever) many significant improvements have been rolled out. Off the top of my head --

• Dual motor
• AP1, then AP2 and AP2.5
• New MCU
• Increased size packs
• Increased performance

Not intended to be exhaustive, of course.

Personally, I'm with others who still think the styling is great, and other than styling I'm not at all convinced that the car isn't being constantly refreshed. To some extent I think this way of thinking is a holdover from the pernicious model year system other automakers use, where they hold back technology and bundle changes with body changes to try to build buzz, whereas Tesla follows more of a continuous improvement model. I would hate to see them start holding back the pace of improvement just so they could build buzz once a year. Ick.

If I needed a new car right now I wouldn't hesitate to buy a current Model S.

P.S.: I do think it's idiotic the back seat passengers can't control their own ass-warmers.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

P.S.: I do think it's idiotic the back seat passengers can't control their own ass-warmers.

I still think they could add that as a Bluetooth controlled feature. Passengers could have a "lite" version of the Tesla app that lets them control a few things via Bluetooth instead of needing the owner's credentials.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

Agree 100%, Model S is a relatively timeless design, bit of Aston Martin, bit of Maserati, both of which have a style line that has been consistent for ages. Model S will still look contemporary in 2025 IMHO.

Agree. Bought a new 2018 MS P100D with ludicrous+ this past Sept and chose the MS over a Mercedes S class, Audi R8, Porsche Panamera Turbo, Aston Martin, BMW 7 series, Maserati, etc.

Why the MS? It has
1. The fastest 0 to 60 at 2.3 secs. Beats most super/hypercars. <—— mostly this
2. It is an EV
3. Tesla’s SC network.

The good looks were admittedly secondary although I agree the design is timeless.

Granted, if I wanted 3 zillion paint choices and interior options, there are many cars with massaging seats, rich Corinthian leather, individual screens, all kinds of luxury fluff like a Cadillac, Genesis,.... Rolls Royce if you are into that kind of thing.

I’m very happy with the SP100D’s current range of 315 miles which works well with the way I drive: I like to stop every three hours for food/break. 95% of my mileage is from road trips.

As a new owner, the only thing that’ll make me upgrade is significantly more range ~600 miles and 0 to 60 in under 2 secs... Will buy the 2020 Roadster when it comes out.

 

[SWPenn]

What do you think their top 3 priorities should be?

Y, Semi, pickup.

 

[sam2035]

There was an article on Electrek I think about the pending interior refresh. My wife and I thought it looked hideous. Plus, we make a 220-mile round trip once or twice a month that is not near an SC and our 2012 P85 couldn't make the trip without charging which added an hour. So we took advantage of the tax credit and picked up a loaner S100D last month. We lamented the loss of our rear-facing MS seats and thought about an X but the range penalty would have made the above trip dicey in the winter. W/ the S100D we've done it twice now in the winter with no problems. AWD and the other features (heated steering wheel and back seats, EAP, etc) were a bonus. I wish they would have just sold us a 100kWh pack upgrade but that still isn't an option.

IMO, what will drive a range upgrade will either be based on when Tesla's current contracts for 18650s are fulfilled and it makes economic sense to use GF 2170s or, if/when a competitor comes out w/ a 300-mile range car. Elon will force a bump whether it makes economic sense or not.

I also believe that the semi was a stupid idea. They know 0 about the market and 0 about the product. They have no idea what truckers want, how to service them, etc. Who cares if Volvo and Freightliner build EV trucks? Yay for the environment. Tesla needs to focus on the passenger car market. At least they know >0 about that.

Part of the MISSION is to move the world from polluting ICEs to EVs, and to make a profit whilst at it. Semis and Pickup are next in line. Then Ocean going ships. If it means a facelift every tens years, so be it. Others manufacturers will give enough facelift alright.

Oh by the way, I need the Pickup truck with 500miles range and enough capacity to spare, to power the house. I'd say the equivalent of two PowerWalls and a way round the regulations, by treating the Pickup truck as a power generator of sorts.

So, to the stars and beyond ….and enough bottom-line to keep everybody happy.