Tesla on Charging Standards

[smorgasbord]

Interesting (if you're a geek like me, anyway) discussion with a Tesla engineer on their choice of charging connections for Model S. Shot during the October Model S Factory event. Includes a explanation of why they rejected both J172 and CHAdeMO:

[video=vimeo;36221090]http://vimeo.com/36221090[/video]
Tesla on Charging Standards on Vimeo

 

[jcstp]

verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting!
even though I only understand half of it! :biggrin:

 

[doug]

Interesting. It's all understandable if you've been following this stuff. The Tesla engineer says "SAE is slow," meaning that they're taking forever slow to agree upon the their high power DC (combo) connector standard. (This has since been finanlied, I think, though it looks ridiculous.) He confirms that the Model S connector will most likely be electrically compatible with SAE, which is something I had only guessed at before (in October), but is good to see confirmed. So he expects to have a mechanical adapter to the SAE standard.

There's then some talk about Tesla being like Apple. Btw, this particular engineer gets interviewed in Revenge of the Electric Car.

 

[widodh]

Interesting. It's all understandable if you've been following this stuff. The Tesla engineer says "SAE is slow," meaning that they're taking forever slow to agree upon the their high power DC (combo) connector standard. (This has since been finanlied, I think, though it looks ridiculous.) He confirms that the Model S connector will most likely be electrically compatible with SAE, which is something I had only guessed at before (in October), but is good to see confirmed. So he expects to have a mechanical adapter to the SAE standard.

There's then some talk about Tesla being like Apple. Btw, this particular engineer gets interviewed in Revenge of the Electric Car.

But he also says that he doesn't like CHAdeMO since it goes into the internals of the car (CAN bus). He expects that quick chargers will be retrofitted to the new SAE standard. (Did I get that part right?)

 

[ChadS]

He expects that quick chargers will be retrofitted to the new SAE standard. (Did I get that part right?)

It sounded to me like he said that (but I couldn't hear it well; Doug below claims he didn't). I'm not sure that will happen. The DOT officials in a couple of states near me that are currently installing CHAdeMO chargers realize that in the future they may "have" to install SAE chargers instead of CHAdeMO ones, but they think it would be a mistake to spend money changing over existing CHAdeMO stations and stranding drivers that depend on them. They assume that existing CHAdeMO stations will stay as they are, and new installs may be SAE. (Or may not, depending on the source of funds for the chargers and whether CHAdeMO has seen enough installs to be a defacto standard or not).

I have tried to get estimates of how much it would cost to change a station over, but nobody's been willing to guess.

As the engineer says...it's complicated.

 

[efusco]

If anyone's really good with the audio software out there it would be great if they could filter out all the background stuff--so tough to follow this conversation. Interesting stuff--maybe a transcript would help make it easier to follow.

 

[smorgasbord]

If anyone's really good with the audio software out there...

Sorry about that. I shot this with my Canon S95 digicam in a crowded room.

I've got Audacity and Adobe Audition, but hardly use them. If anyone has some suggested setting/effects to employ, I'll take a crack.

 

[doug]

He expects that quick chargers will be retrofitted to the new SAE standard. (Did I get that part right?)

No. He said, "I talked to a couple manufacturers of [charging] stations and they're definitely on-board with adopting SAE when it's ready. In fact, some of the grants they have to install the stations require it."

So he said adopting, not adapting (which would imply retrofitting). Separately he said they'll probably be able to adopt SAE highpower connector to the Model S since it will have use the same comm protocols.

Are people having trouble hearing what is being said (as opposed to understanding the content)? Maybe try wearing headphones.

 

[GSP]

Where is the video? I don't even see a link on my iPad.

GSP

Edit: Thanks Doug for adding the link.:smile:

 

[doug]

Where is the video? I don't even see a link on my iPad.

GSP

Sadly doesn't show up on iOS devices. Here's a link (also added above): Tesla on Charging Standards on Vimeo

 

[AnOutsider]

I think the issue is that they are forcing iOS devices to use the HTML5 player (like YouTube does sometimes and what Steve jobs strived for), unfortunately I find HTML5 video players are finicky at best

 

[dpeilow]

Interesting he was going to talk about Europe when someone interupted. Who was the English dude off camera?

 

[dmckinstry]

No. He said, "I talked to a couple manufacturers of [charging] stations and they're definitely on-board with adopting SAE when it's ready. In fact, some of the grants they have to install the stations require it."

So he said adopting, not adapting (which would imply retrofitting). Separately he said they'll probably be able to adopt SAE highpower connector to the Model S since it will have use the same comm protocols.

Are people having trouble hearing what is being said (as opposed to understanding the content)? Maybe try wearing headphones.

My problem was it kept stopping and loading, stopping and loading.
Continual stopping of audio made it hard for me to hear what was being said.

 

[doug]

My problem was it kept stopping and loading, stopping and loading.
Continual stopping of audio made it hard for me to hear what was being said.

Pause the video for a bit so it has time to buffer.

 

[ElSupreme]

Pause the video for a bit so it has time to buffer.

Or watch till it starts loading, back it to 0 seconds and watch till it starts loading, repeat until you get to the end. This helps with my lack of patience.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Interesting. It's all understandable if you've been following this stuff. The Tesla engineer says "SAE is slow," meaning that they're taking forever slow to agree upon the their high power DC (combo) connector standard. (This has since been finanlied, I think, though it looks ridiculous.) He confirms that the Model S connector will most likely be electrically compatible with SAE, which is something I had only guessed at before (in October), but is good to see confirmed. So he expects to have a mechanical adapter to the SAE standard.

There's then some talk about Tesla being like Apple. Btw, this particular engineer gets interviewed in Revenge of the Electric Car.

Exactly what I suspected (esp. after looking at a wiring diagram for J1772-DC) and it's nice to see it confirmed.
http://http://www.teslamotorsclub.c...or-the-Model-S?p=104399&viewfull=1#post104399

Judging by what they have been doing for J1772 L2, I knew the Tesla engineers won't design a completely proprietary/incompatible connector.

What I wonder is, what does it mean for the Tesla "superchargers"? Tesla can actually build them to support J1772-DC with just an adapter or additional connector (although it doesn't really benefit Tesla business-wise, unless Tesla can work out some deal with the other auto makes who plan to use J1772-DC). That should become an interesting situation.

I don't want to bring this OT again, but it does give some hope to the 40kWh buyers. Even if the "superchargers" don't support them, they may be able to still use J1772-DC with a mechanical adapter. That makes it all the more critical to verify if the 40kWh version has the hardware already for DC charging (then only a software tweak is needed to allow J1772-DC charging).

 

[Norbert]

With the announcement of European manufacturers to have a compatible DC communications standard (with SAE), we can expect that if a mechanical adapter for SAE-DC is possible, then one for Mennekes-DC will be possible as well.

I don't know how small or not-so small the chances are of this actually happening, but I still think that the monstrosity of the SAE and Mennekes DC-combo connectors defeats the purpose of having a single car-side plug. They'd be better off using a second Tesla plug for DC, next to their respective Level2 standard plug. Wouldn't take much more space, if at all, and much easier to handle for the customer.

 

[widodh]

With the announcement of European manufacturers to have a compatible DC communications standard (with SAE), we can expect that if a mechanical adapter for SAE-DC is possible, then one for Mennekes-DC will be possible as well.

I don't know how small or not-so small the chances are of this actually happening, but I still think that the monstrosity of the SAE and Mennekes DC-combo connectors defeats the purpose of having a single car-side plug. They'd be better off using a second Tesla plug for DC, next to their respective Level2 standard plug. Wouldn't take much more space, if at all, and much easier to handle for the customer.

The signaling in the US and the EU has always been the seem. Only the connectors are different.

It is indeed good to hear, but it will take time before all the existing CHAdeMO has been retrofitted to this DC protocol or before new chargers will be rolled out.

I however don't like the plug design Tesla went with, for reasons which have been stated on this forum multiple times (3-phase issues and adapter issues).

I do however get why they didn't want to go with CHAdeMO.

 

[smorgasbord]

Interesting he was going to talk about Europe when someone interupted.

If there's enough interest, I'll go back and look at my original footage and see if there's anything on Europe I cut out.

 

[Norbert]

The signaling in the US and the EU has always been the seem. Only the connectors are different.

I'm referring to this announcement from October 2011: German Automakers Endorse a Unified Standard for D.C. Fast-Charging - NYTimes.com

"The announcement is the most explicit indication yet from German automakers that they favor the design standard coordinated by SAE International, an organization of scientists and vehicle engineers, over one developed by the Tokyo Electric Power Company and in wide use in Asia, known as Chademo."

It is indeed good to hear, but it will take time before all the existing CHAdeMO has been retrofitted to this DC protocol or before new chargers will be rolled out.

The question of a separate CHAdeMO adapter remains.

I however don't like the plug design Tesla went with, for reasons which have been stated on this forum multiple times (3-phase issues and adapter issues).

I know, that's a different topic. What I said here is that European auto-manufacturers (and SAE) could use the Tesla plug for the DC part, instead of the "combo" addition.