Tesla recalls 2 million vehicles to limit use of Autopilot

[Big Dog]

Wow, the recall applies to non-FSD capable cars as well, so AP1 cars aren't safe from the upcoming nerf:

View attachment 998918

Cars don't have to have FSD to have Autopilot.

 

[MP3Mike]

That alone has caused many many accidents with intense ABS triggering stop events with NO CAR in sight.

Where is the evidence that all of these accidents are actually happening? And really it caused an accident "with NO CAR in sight"?

I think NHTSA still has an investigation going on this. Give it a few more years.

 

[sublimejackman]

Do you think Tesla numbers are high because the car reports that it had an incident?

If a Kia has an accident, does Kia find out?

Thats a question, not a statement.

In 2023 Subaru, Tesla and GM reported via "telemetrics". Between GM and Suabru there were fewer than 100 incidents. Tesla had over 900. Now that is at least somewhat skewed by every Tesla having AP. But looking at where and what conditions the collisons were in, it is clear that people are abusing AP on a scale that the other automakers aren't seeing. Multiple deaths, several instances of it being used in snowy conditions, backroads, pedestrians struck, etc. There is some validitiy to this recall.

Raw data: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADAS.csv

 

[stopcrazypp]

Recall is just the name of the regulatory process, a process Tesla was well aware of for years. An OTA update that addressed the NHTSA concerns coulda been sent out 2021 but Tesla didn't.

And to be fair, in 2022, there were 273 accidents with AP engaged.

More than all other car manufactures put together (and this includes other manufacturers with just plain jane adaptive cruise control).

This is on Tesla.

NHTSA in their data that you cut out specifically warns against people like you that want to draw conclusions that are misleading or outright false due to vast differences in the ability of automakers in collecting data. Unfortunately it seems people just ignore that part and do it anyways.

Access to Crash Data May Affect Crash Reporting​

Crash data recording and telemetry capabilities may vary widely by manufacturer and driving automation system. ADS-equipped vehicles typically utilize multiple sensors and cameras and tend to have relatively advanced data recording and telemetry capabilities. As a result, crashes involving ADS-equipped vehicles can generally be reported in a timely manner with great detail. However, it is important to keep in mind differences and variation in data recording and telemetry capabilities for different reporting entities when reviewing the summary incident report data.
Many Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicles may be limited in their capabilities to record data related to driving automation system engagement and crash circumstances. The vehicle’s ability to remotely transmit this data to the manufacturer for notification purposes can also widely vary. Furthermore, Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicles are generally privately owned; as a result, when a reportable crash does occur, manufacturers may not know of it unless contacted by the vehicle owner. These limitations are important to keep in mind when reviewing the summary incident report data.
Manufacturers of Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicles with limited data recording and telemetry capabilities may only receive consumer reports of driving automation system involvement in a crash outcome, and there may be a time delay before the manufacturer is notified, if the manufacturer is notified at all. In general, timeliness of the General Order reporting is dependent on if and when the manufacturer becomes aware of the crash and not on when the crash occurs. Due to variation in data recording and telemetry capabilities, the summary incident report data should not be assumed to be statistically representative of all crashes.
For example, a Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicle manufacturer with access to advanced data recording and telemetry may report a higher number of crashes than a manufacturer with limited access, simply due to the latter’s reliance on conventional crash reporting processes. In other words, it is feasible that some Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicle crashes are not included in the summary incident report data because the reporting entity was not aware of them. Furthermore, some crashes of Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicles with limited telematic capabilities may not be included in the General Order if the consumer did not state that the automation system was engaged within 30 seconds of the crash or if there is no other available information indicating Level 2 ADAS engagement due to limited data available from the crashed vehicle. By contrast, some manufacturers have access to a much greater amount of crash data almost immediately after a crash because of their advanced data recording and telemetry.

Standing General Order on Crash Reporting | NHTSA

The last sentence applies in spades to Tesla. Yes there may be a few cases where Tesla doesn't get the data, but that is a small minority of cases. However, it is the complete opposite for most automakers! They simply don't get any data automatically and they certainly won't have any incentive to change that now that NHTSA has this standing order (which doesn't order them to create such a system)!

 

[FireFighterHil]

From the NHTSA, just 2022...

View attachment 999086

Now adjust that to how many Teslas are on the road, and adjust it again for how many miles all those teslas have driven while on L2 ADAS. You can manipulate data to make it seem like anything is a death trap.

 

[sublimejackman]

Now adjust that to how many Teslas are on the road, and adjust it again for how many miles all those teslas have driven while on L2 ADAS. You can manipulate data to make it seem like anything is a death trap.

Look at the collisions in snowy, rain, backroads, pedestrians, etc... Adaptive cruise control is not causing those kind of collisions. There is validty to this recall

Raw data: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADAS.csv

 

[ArchHamster]

Do you think Tesla numbers are high because the car reports that it had an accident?

If a Kia has an accident, does Kia find out?

Thats a question, not a statement.

No, Under the data limitations quote in my post you are replying too is the source where it's talked about in more details. This relies on self reporting by the manufacturers. If they have advanced ADAS 2 systems but not the ability to collect the data automatically then it's not reported and relies on consumers self reporting. Thus resulting in the strong skew towards tesla.

This data set is so biased that it really shouldn't be being used for regulations imo. Instead they should be forcing other manufacturers with ADAS 2 systems to report the same as Tesla. Otherwise any decision is necessarily overfit to Tesla's specific implementation.

Edit: And probably no one else but Tesla has a strong IT team which could process this data automatically right now. The other manufacturers are still struggling with OTA for goodness sake.

 

[modl3mike]

My wife took delivery of a new Model Y a few days ago and I believe it already has this “recall” fix. I was wondering why Autosteer was so different than my 3, which I haven’t updated in a few months.

For those wondering what the fix entails

1. FSD beta style lockout. After 5 disengagements for not addressing nags, you cannot use Autosteer for some period of time
2. More nags, both to pay attention to the road and to keep your hands on the wheel. You have to look at the screen to know what it wants you to do. Sometimes the nags are instant when you engage Autosteer. For example, if you engage Autosteer while looking at the screen you get instant beeps.
3. More prominent nags on the screen. They now show at the top of the visualization initially instead of the bottom.
4. Option/setting for simplified Autosteer engagement with single pull
5. If single pull is enabled, it also simplifies disengagement by no longer switching you to TACC if you disengage by turning the wheel
6. Thankfully I haven’t yet noticed any difference on where it allows Autosteer to be engaged, though I haven’t done a ton of testing

 

[sublimejackman]

No, Under the data limitations quote in my post you are replying too is the source where it's talked about in more details. This relies on self reporting by the manufacturers. If they have advanced ADAS 2 systems but not the ability to collect the data automatically then it's not reported and relies on consumers self reporting. Thus resulting in the strong skew towards tesla.

This data set is so biased that it really shouldn't be being used for regulations imo. Instead they should be forcing other manufacturers with ADAS 2 systems to report the same as Tesla. Otherwise any decision is necessarily overfit to Tesla's specific implementation.

Edit: And probably no one else but Tesla has a strong IT team which could process this data automatically right now. The other manufacturers are still struggling with OTA for goodness sake.

Both GM and Subaru self-reported via telemetrics in 2023.

Raw data: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADAS.csv

 

[stopcrazypp]

In 2023 Subaru, Tesla and GM reported via "telemetrics". Between GM and Suabru there were fewer than 100 incidents. Tesla had over 900. Now that is at least somewhat skewed by every Tesla having AP. But looking at where and what conditions the collisons were in, it is clear that people are abusing AP on a scale that the other automakers aren't seeing. Multiple deaths, several instances of it being used in snowy conditions, backroads, pedestrians struck, etc. There is some validitiy to this recall.

Raw data: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADAS.csv

Not every GM vehicles has lane centering (far from it). Even the Bolt took a long while to get it. Cadillacs were the ones that got it for a while. The data subscription for Onstar is also not free for GM vehicles, unlike Tesla.
Site Maintenance

For Subaru, from a quick search, they didn't even start having lane centering (the bare minimum to meet the reporting requirements) until the 2020 model year. That means they have a much smaller population of users.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SubaruForester/comments/f9gpe9

Their internet features are also not free and also require paid subscription to continue:
Compare Packages

Now, it's possible the car still reports data to the automaker even if you don't pay for the subscription, but the gist I am getting is that the monthly fee pays for the internet connection (which automakers pays to a carrier like AT&T, Verizon, or whatever), so the car may just have internet turned off without it and wouldn't have an active internet connection to send the data to the automaker.

Tesla is slowly moving in that direction (no more free connectivity), but the 8 years is not up yet for when they switched the policy for Standard Connectivity. It remains to be seen what features are missing once Standard Connectivity expires.
https://www.tesla.com/support/connectivity

There are two metrics NHTSA can request automakers to supply that would make comparisons much easier:
1) What is the population of vehicles that the reporting covers (updated stats on how many cars are out there, what model years, and if activated mileage information is available, even better)?
2) Are there factors like subscriptions that may disable automatic reporting?

Side Note: looking at the subscription packages of other automakers, I'm so glad Tesla haven't been nickel and diming people on subscription package. Even the premium connectivity package pricing is much more reasonable compared to the other manufacturers, and the current 8 years of standard connectivity is a ton better than the few months trial other automakers supply.

 

[sublimejackman]

Not every GM vehicles has lane centering. Even the Bolt took a long while to get it. Cadillacs were the ones that got it for a while. The data subscription for Onstar is also not free for GM vehicles, unlike Tesla.
Site Maintenance
Tesla is slowly moving in that direction, but the 8 years is not up yet for when they switched the policy for Standard Connectivity. It remains to be seen what features are missing once Standard Connectivity expires.
https://www.tesla.com/support/connectivity

For Subaru, from a quick search, they didn't even start having lane centering (the bare minimum to meet the reporting requirements) until the 2020 model year. That means they have a much smaller population of users.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SubaruForester/comments/f9gpe9

Their internet features are also not free and also require paid subscription to continue:
Compare Packages

Now, it's possible the car still reports data to the automaker even if you don't pay for the subscription, but the gist I am getting is that the monthly fee pays for the internet connection (which automakers pays to a carrier like AT&T, Verizon, or whatever), so the car may just have internet turned off without it and wouldn't have an active internet connection to send the data to the automaker.

Correct, this is showing all level 2 systems. GM and Subaru have the technology to implement something like AP. (AP has existing for a decade and for the first few years, Tesla subcontracted to another company) But Tesla is the only one who allows it on most roads. That's the safety issue, that the technology is fundmentally not ready for public use on roads other than restricted highways

 

[Tha_Ape]

I always tap up on the shift selector to disengage whatever ADAS I am using whenever I assume control; invariably it is for passenger comfort.

I've forgotten that a couple of times and been penalized. It's annoying on a long trip. Once I pulled onto the shoulder just to put it in park and reset it. Thank goodness the car accelerates like an animal... I think that's more dangerous than having a watchdog timer to allow me to re-engage.

 

[gtae07]

but at this point I’m thinking I will likely just stop using AP.

I might, too. I rarely use it other than on long interstate trips anyway, but if the nags get worse I probably won't bother anymore.

Unfortunately, like everything else, all it takes is that guy...

 

[69KWH]

My wife took delivery of a new Model Y a few days ago and I believe it already has this “recall” fix. I was wondering why Autosteer was so different than my 3, which I haven’t updated in a few months.

For those wondering what the fix entails

1. FSD beta style lockout. After 5 disengagements for not addressing nags, you cannot use Autosteer for some period of time
2. More nags, both to pay attention to the road and to keep your hands on the wheel. You have to look at the screen to know what it wants you to do. Sometimes the nags are instant when you engage Autosteer. For example, if you engage Autosteer while looking at the screen you get instant beeps.
3. More prominent nags on the screen. They now show at the top of the visualization initially instead of the bottom.
4. Option/setting for simplified Autosteer engagement with single pull
5. If single pull is enabled, it also simplifies disengagement by no longer switching you to TACC if you disengage by turning the wheel
6. Thankfully I haven’t yet noticed any difference on where it allows Autosteer to be engaged, though I haven’t done a ton of testing

The lockout and increased nags sound like a hassle, but at least they're more prominent and can be seen easier when driving. I wonder how the nagging would change if the cabin camera was covered...

 

[uscbucsfan]

The lockout and increased nags sound like a hassle, but at least they're more prominent and can be seen easier when driving. I wonder how the nagging would change if the cabin camera was covered...

If it's like FSD, it won't let you cover it.

 

[drtimhill]

. A lot of car makers have offered some form of adaptive cruise control that can steer the car under some conditions for a few years now. I don't know how many cars out there have a system installed, but the number of cars with these systems probably outnumber Tesla's fleet of cars with AP.

Agreed, but none of them to the best of my knowledge gather the details statistics that Tesla do .. and in fact this was evident when the NTHSA asked for data from car makers.

 

[enemji]

Do I have to drive it to the service station or will it drive itself?

jk

 

[azred]

My wife took delivery of a new Model Y a few days ago and I believe it already has this “recall” fix. I was wondering why Autosteer was so different than my 3, which I haven’t updated in a few months.

For those wondering what the fix entails

1. FSD beta style lockout. After 5 disengagements for not addressing nags, you cannot use Autosteer for some period of time
2. More nags, both to pay attention to the road and to keep your hands on the wheel. You have to look at the screen to know what it wants you to do. Sometimes the nags are instant when you engage Autosteer. For example, if you engage Autosteer while looking at the screen you get instant beeps.
3. More prominent nags on the screen. They now show at the top of the visualization initially instead of the bottom.
4. Option/setting for simplified Autosteer engagement with single pull
5. If single pull is enabled, it also simplifies disengagement by no longer switching you to TACC if you disengage by turning the wheel
6. Thankfully I haven’t yet noticed any difference on where it allows Autosteer to be engaged, though I haven’t done a ton of testing

Unless your wife has 2023.44.30, which isn’t showing yet on TeslaFi, I doubt she has the “recall” on her new Y.

 

[MP3Mike]

Unless your wife has 2023.44.30, which isn’t showing yet on TeslaFi, I doubt she has the “recall” on her new Y.

If they took delivery of a vehicle after 12/7 they have the fix, but it may be a factory firmware verdin.

 

[OxBrew]

Like I said, lost because stupid people cant be expected not to stick their heads in open windows. Gotta make sure we protect all the stupid people. Just like the big "HOT" labels all over a cup of coffee.

Or the 4 yr old kid playing in the car as mom walks away and dad is in the back seat on his phone.

So the kid should just be smarter?