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Tesla recalls 2 million vehicles to limit use of Autopilot

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There are multiple threads where Tesla owners are confused. There was a thread posted here where a guy's wife wrecked with FSD who had very little clue about how the system works.

Many seemingly are confused.
They may be confused about specifics, but they know very well the car doesn't drive itself, especially when talking about AP, as this thread is talking about. There are owners out there that try to use that as an excuse (for example in lawsuits), but so far it has failed in court because when it comes down to it, between the nags and the car occasionally doing stupid things, the owner is fully aware they can't leave the AP to its own devices, despite whatever marketing they complain about.
 
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Engagement is already restricted (steering wheel grayed out). However, it doesn't disengage when it reaches into an area that wouldn't have allowed you to engage. The safety logic is the system automatically disengaging may be more dangerous than it keep running and the driver disengaging as they see fit.

Also for other systems, you can keep lane keeping on even on city roads, it would be a double standard to have Tesla strictly disable it, and not do the same to other manufacturers.

Also for the red light/stop sign running, that's more of a TACC thing and no ACC system currently has geofence limitations. The assumption is the driver is not stupid enough not to realize it doesn't stop for those (especially after testing it out a few times).
You are absolutely correct, of course. The restriction I was responding about was the intention (as stated in the Owner's manual) that AP only be used on controlled access highways. It is of course not geofenced to those highways, and I am grateful because I believe that, for people in my situation, AP is safer than not when used with discretion on two lane, well marked, bidirectional roads.

And, absolutely, there are no robust comparative data available from other manufacturers to determine whether or not AP is safer than other systems or none at all. There are lots of miles driven between accidents, and even more between deaths. Until we have that data with the granularity to be sure we won't know for sure if we are saving lives with AP or other systems. In the mean time, there are obvious good reasons for automobile manufacturers to try build safety systems to reduce accidents and deaths.
 
Oil subsidies have been going on for ever. They hit 1 trillion USD globally in 2022.

Thanks for the link.
I'm not in a position to review the subsidies game around the world (nor do I care, to be honest), but the US is not on that list at all !?!?
Maybe it's just me, but I could not click-through to an actual research paper that underpins any of claims made on the iea.org web site.
Did I miss it, or is it not there?
🤷‍♂️

Here's an article that covers fossil fuel subsidies that go as far back as the 1900s.
Long History Of U.S. Energy Subsidies

Thanks, this is more insightful, and C&EN seams legit.
However, if their analysis is correct, US subsidies for oil & gas industries are miniscule. To the point that they are hardly worth mentioning.
Oil and gas lead in historical average of annual subsidies:
1704242079725.png


These #s are all in the margin-of-error category, compared to the size of the US economy ($27 Trillion) or the US oil & gas sector revenue ($333 Billion).
~1-2% of annual revenue hardly moves the needle!

Well, I am pretty sure that the key word in your question is "independent", and I have a feeling that to you "independent" means any source that doesn't support my statement.

Thanks for the links, but they are at best marginally relevant.
By "independent" I mean numbers sourced from an acknowledge data-centric entity that cites its sources. As opposed to some organization that is promoting its own agenda irrespective of facts.
Description of what IMF is not pertinent, and the link to graphical representation of subsidies world-wide is not great since the map fails to link to the source of data it claims to represent. For what it's worth, the US subsidies are claimed to be in the $0-$10/per capita range, or between $0 and $3.3B / year.

Again, these US subsidies numbers are insignificantly small to be worthy of debate, or a mention.

Turn them off, and the oil industry goes away. It can't exist without them. We are f----ing ourselves right in the -climate-, and paying (taxes) for the privelege.
The whole thing is just a sick tragedy.

To be fair, making oil industry go away would be a massive economic calamity of genocidal proportions.
Much of the US (and the world) economy is dependent for hydrocarbons for essential inputs into most core materials needed for modern technology.

I'm not a fan of subsidies (thus my questions), but by the same token, wishing for all hydrocarbon inputs to go offline would be highly irresponsible.

a
 
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Sorry, not gonna read the several hundred posts since my last visit. But I will say that I have been driving with the "safety" update for a couple of weeks now (including a 200+ mile R/T) and I have to say that I barely noticing any more nagging: from the car or the wife ( ;) ). About the only time I notice more is when I am doing something I'm not supposed to be doing: on the long drive, it was exactly the same as previous.
 
Sorry, not gonna read the several hundred posts since my last visit. But I will say that I have been driving with the "safety" update for a couple of weeks now (including a 200+ mile R/T) and I have to say that I barely noticing any more nagging: from the car or the wife ( ;) ). About the only time I notice more is when I am doing something I'm not supposed to be doing: on the long drive, it was exactly the same as previous.
How do I get the wife update?
 
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You are absolutely correct, of course. The restriction I was responding about was the intention (as stated in the Owner's manual) that AP only be used on controlled access highways. It is of course not geofenced to those highways, and I am grateful because I believe that, for people in my situation, AP is safer than not when used with discretion on two lane, well marked, bidirectional roads.
It's possible AP now doesn't allow engaging in those roads if it did before, but the tests so far at least show it doesn't disable when it reaches those roads. There are many roads there it transitions from multi-lane divided highway to two lane bidirectional roads and arguably it would be more dangerous if the system automatically disengaged when it reached those roads.
 
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Sorry, not gonna read the several hundred posts since my last visit. But I will say that I have been driving with the "safety" update for a couple of weeks now (including a 200+ mile R/T) and I have to say that I barely noticing any more nagging: from the car or the wife ( ;) ). About the only time I notice more is when I am doing something I'm not supposed to be doing: on the long drive, it was exactly the same as previous.
Same observation here - hardly any changes in AP behavior post the update.
If this was supposed to be Tesla's response to the "recall" - it was nothing more than a fig leaf.
I'm not prepared to say what more, if anything, SHOULD have been done. But what WAS done, will hardly address NHTS's core objections - that the AP/FSD engage and create an impression of "working" in areas where they routinely fail, as per Tesla's own declaimers buries in the manual.

All out advertising? A few Tweets and a web site is all out advertising?

Social media outreach, posts, and video uploads (legit and/or fraudulent) ARE advertising.
Other companies pay for this. It's unclear if Musk remunerates Twitter for his Tesla posts, or not. And it doesn't really matter.

We all know what Tesla has been promising for AP/FSD functionality for the past 5+ years vs. what it has actually delivered.

a
 
It's possible AP now doesn't allow engaging in those roads if it did before, but the tests so far at least show it doesn't disable when it reaches those roads. There are many roads there it transitions from multi-lane divided highway to two lane bidirectional roads and arguably it would be more dangerous if the system automatically disengaged when it reached those roads.
It definitely allows me to engage on those roads. No problem. Thank you, NHTSA.
 
Of course you think that.

I make conclusions based on the data presented.

But you already had your mind made up.

Not at all.
I'm soliciting intelligent input from others, who presumably, make logical conclusions based on verifiable facts.
If you fall into the opposite category (use spurious claims to justify pre-existing beliefs), please move along.

Have a nice day!

Thanks, you too.
 
Sorry, not gonna read the several hundred posts since my last visit. But I will say that I have been driving with the "safety" update for a couple of weeks now (including a 200+ mile R/T) and I have to say that I barely noticing any more nagging: from the car or the wife ( ;) ). About the only time I notice more is when I am doing something I'm not supposed to be doing: on the long drive, it was exactly the same as previous.
I think those that notice the greatest change are not using the system properly. Those that don't notice extra nags after the recall update already know how to use the system.
 
I make conclusions based on the data presented.



Not at all.
I'm soliciting intelligent input from others, who presumably, make logical conclusions based on verifiable facts.
If you fall into the opposite category (use spurious claims to justify pre-existing beliefs), please move along.



Thanks, you too.
If you are demanding a detailed dissertation on the minutia of the US Tax code in a car forum, then you are setting an impossible standard, I suspect by intent.

You have widely recognized sources linked for you. And please, don't "move along". I think you are hardened, but not unbreakable.

Thank you for the challenge.

 
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Thanks, this is more insightful, and C&EN seams legit.
However, if their analysis is correct, US subsidies for oil & gas industries are miniscule. To the point that they are hardly worth mentioning.
Oil and gas lead in historical average of annual subsidies:
View attachment 1005179

These #s are all in the margin-of-error category, compared to the size of the US economy ($27 Trillion) or the US oil & gas sector revenue ($333 Billion).
~1-2% of annual revenue hardly moves the needle!
Comparing to current annual revenue is quite misleading, because those revenues only got to where they are today after literally a decade of subsidies and development. How "significant" is a subjective measure (others would compare the absolute number and say that they are a lot more significant), but the argument from the other side is that the fossil fuel subsidies have outlived their usefulness and those subsidies instead should be applied to renewables, which have less externalities which are not typically factored into the calculation (pollution and geopolitical expenses).
Thanks for the links, but they are at best marginally relevant.
By "independent" I mean numbers sourced from an acknowledge data-centric entity that cites its sources. As opposed to some organization that is promoting its own agenda irrespective of facts.
Description of what IMF is not pertinent, and the link to graphical representation of subsidies world-wide is not great since the map fails to link to the source of data it claims to represent. For what it's worth, the US subsidies are claimed to be in the $0-$10/per capita range, or between $0 and $3.3B / year.

Again, these US subsidies numbers are insignificantly small to be worthy of debate, or a mention.
By that measure, renewable subsidies are even smaller, yet you have people arguing for their elimination, while fighting tooth and nail to maintain the fossil fuel subsidies.
To be fair, making oil industry go away would be a massive economic calamity of genocidal proportions.
Much of the US (and the world) economy is dependent for hydrocarbons for essential inputs into most core materials needed for modern technology.

I'm not a fan of subsidies (thus my questions), but by the same token, wishing for all hydrocarbon inputs to go offline would be highly irresponsible.

a
That's a fallacy. The supporters of alternatives to oil are not arguing for an overnight elimination. Rather it's to start finding alternatives and to support them. It's the same fallacy EV naysayers use, that the grid won't support an 100% move to EVs today and the supply of battery materials is not enough yet, so we shouldn't even try. However, that isn't what is happening (or can possibly happen), rather the move is gradual, given plenty of time for those issues to be addressed.

Saying we are too reliant on something as a reason not to make changes is circular. Even very small moves like charging money for plastic bags, banning plastic straws, which got a lot of backlash and seemed "impossible" years ago (I personally was skeptical of it myself) seems to be working and may be a stepping stone to replacing plastic in other uses (after people find out it's not as impossible as they thought it was). Heck, I still remember when EVs seemed impossible and I would have never imagine being able to travel hundreds of miles on a roadtrip with them with minimal to no difference in trip time (which I just did recently; I just used the rest periods I would have anyways for charging).
 
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That's a fallacy. The supporters of alternatives to oil are not arguing for an overnight elimination. Rather it's to start finding alternatives and to support them. It's the same fallacy EV naysayers use, that the grid won't support an 100% move to EVs today and the supply of battery materials is not enough yet, so we shouldn't even try. However, that isn't what is happening (or can possibly happen), rather the move is gradual, given plenty of time for those issues to be addressed.

While I don't fully disagree with the basis of this response to the naysayers, the issue I'm facing is that in my area, those issues are not being addressed and will not be addressed before it becomes a major issue. The naysayers are correct.

Given the success of the Model Y, one could argue we are getting really close to a tipping point for EV ownership. And my country has 'no more ICE vehicle sales' legislation that is just over a decade away. Yet, 40% of households do not live in a place that supports charging. And the response in the building code is that newly built high rises must include an L2 charging station.

I live in a building that is 55 years old. I 'won' as an early adopter because for some reason my landlord miraculously allowed me to pay to install a 110v outlet in my underground garage parking spot (I bought the car before having a way to charge it because, at the time, I didn't understand an EV was not like an ICE and that quick charging would be hard on the battery life and a huge pain in the ass. I got the last available circuit on the basement electrical panel. The new owners of the building have 'grandfathered' in my use of my outlet (after all, I paid the equivalent of a year's worth of gas to install it.) But no-one else can install any form of charging and there is no plan to add shared L2 or L3 chargers. To do so would require new power lines being brought in to the property.

A new building is going to be added to this complex and it will have two L2 chargers. Those will serve the 200+ apartments in the new tower, along with the 650 apartments in the existing tower. Obviously, the only solution to high rise living and EV ownership is L3s on the property, not L2s. If, after the new building is built, only 10% of our units have EVs that need to charge 500km worth a week (which is only 300km range, or roughly 25 MILEs a day in winter), we'd need to be connected to that L2 for 1190 hours a week. Yet there are only 168 hours in a week. So we'd need significantly more than the TWO L2s required by zoning. And that assumes everyone is comfortable with starting or ending charging sessions in the middle of the night or on a regular fixed schedule to provide access for everyone.

The city has also started a pilot project to put in L2 chargers for street parking. As I live in a granola eating neighbourhood, it was chosen for the pilot, but that charger is 800M away from my home and has a 3 hour parking limit. It is also unavailable during snow clearing events (we usually get 5 of these a year.) The nearest L3s are a 15 minute drive away (at a library or an auto supply store, those ones being used at night by a government fleet of cars that plug in there at 6 each evening and get picked up at 7 each morning, blocking the use by the general public) and the nearest supercharger (and currently only one in this city that isn't inside a paid parking lot), is 20 minutes away with no useful activity that could be added to that weekly errand if I didn't have home charging.

The province of Quebec, in highly populated areas has promoted the installation of L3s at grocery stores. It means access to washrooms can be limited if you are road tripping at night, but for the local renters, they can drive to the grocery store, doing their weekly shopping while charging for 30 - 40 minutes and the "Always be charging" mantra of EV owners is nicely settled. Montreal have also installed L2 chargers at the end of light rail lines so that EV owners without home charging who live outside of the city limits can drive to the LRT station, plug in, and return back after work downtown to a fully charged vehicle. (Quebec also has the largest government incentives for EV ownership and has the highest concentration of EV ownership as a result of these measures.) There is a way of doing things 'better' but the most populous province in Canada has refused to plan ahead.

Charging at home even at L1 is almost a requirement for EV ownership here, especially once EVs are not rare but the norm. Yet nothing is being done to change the situation for renters. In my case, it is not possible to retrofit the building. Given the age of this building most of the apartments are underpowered for today's lifestyles, my apartment has fuses and my overloaded circuits require creative management in order to avoid blowing fuses all the time. The problem isn't choices (all parts of the building is underpowered), it is expanding the supply to the building which is a prohibitive cost unless one is building new and able to recover that cost through higher rents.

Obviously there are solutions that could be implemented but it doesn't appear that any government is taking the situation seriously when they 'take action'. Look at power generation capacity in my province: 34% nuclear, 28% gas/oil, 23% hydro, 13% wind, 1% solar and under 1% biofuel. Our three nuclear reactors are ancient, opening between 1971 and 1993. Additional reactors are being considered. The argument the grid won't support EVs is not a strawman. Expansion isn't in the works. In fact, failure of the grid due to lack of maintenance is a common problem. Storms aren't the only threat, squirrels have the power to do so as well.

Homeowners and businesses are being encouraged to produce further electricity demand by switching from gas/oil heating. Our homes, in general are very energy efficient (we aren't stupid, heat is expensive so we've been focused on decent windows and insulation for decades and bonus - it makes the hotter summers easier to cope with as well) but that doesn't help the grid any, people still are switching from carbon taxed oil to electricity. Home solar installation is expensive and given our latitude, not enough to support a household without an EV over the year. Ground source heat pumps would be the best alternative but they aren't legislated for new construction of multiple unit residential and heating plants for commercial areas and subdivisions (something Europe has offered over the years) is not a 'thing' here, aside from a few high-profile projects.

So, I don't see any serious use of the "time to prepare" actually happening as far as the electrical grid goes, or as far as serious policies to reduce individual green house gas emissions. Our government recently rescinded the tax on heating oil because too many rural homeowners were affected negatively by that 'encouragement' to switch to electricity, ignoring that our rural electricity grid is precarious due to decades of reduced maintenance, and increases in storm events attributable to climate change. Even our 23% of electrical capacity coming from hydro is at risk due to changing weather patterns affecting the watersheds.

When I was a homeowner, I owned a heavily insulated home, added a steel roof to reduce the number of new roofs needed and that oil requirement and put in a ground source heat pump for heating, cooling, and hot water. We also added a generator that could keep the house livable in all seasons, since we were rural and two major, lengthy, power failures made the need for backup power obvious (and rather than install a propane furnace, we chose ground source heat pump which could by run from the generator when needed.) We also became a single, hybrid, vehicle family.

When the kids were obviously gone for good, we downsized and moved to the city where we could use our feet and transit for a lot of our errands, living in a high rise to reduce our energy use for heating (and with old school hot water radiators which still provide heat from the gas fired boiler due to a generator), and bought an EV since we still needed a car to be part of our children and grandchildren's lives.

But I have observed that my response to climate change and the experts' advise is not typical. There is time to plan for the coming changes but populations are not doing so, either through regulation or personal changes in the numbers required. Even the majority of tesla owners don't seem to drive the car to reduce emissions but because the cars are cool and FAST and they get annoyed when asked to travel the speed limit despite that being an easy way to reduce one's emissions (after all, most power grids are not emission-free so tesla owners generate emissions, just not from a tailpipe.)

So while I strongly dislike the naysayers and don't engage with them, they are coming from a kernel of truth, and there is little evidence that the time to plan for the switch is being used at all. (And note, I haven't even addressed the question of battery production and end of life questions.)
 
All those with sexy stewardesses in the cockpit?

jk (probably needed in this overly sensitive forum)
As a historical and cultural literacy note: I remember that when I traveled with my family in the late 1960s/ early 1970s, some of the motels had "Magic Fingers" installed in the beds. This was essentially an inexpensive buzzing vibration feature that I guess was designed to give the weary traveler a relaxing massage.

It was a novelty for us kids, but actually not too impressive. As I recall, some of these units had a little (alarm clock sized) controller that would only turn on if you inserted a dime, while others may have been freely operable as a feature of the room.

I remember telling my brothers that it vibrated the bed a lot like our vibrating football-field toy at home - the kind where you would set up your plastic football player men in formation and then hit the buzzer to make them all move and execute the play. However, the motel Magic Fingers bed wasn't strong enough to turn us into life sized Electric Football players.

I did a quick search and found that this was invented just before I was born, which is sounds about right. I doubt there are many of these Magic Fingers units still operating.

Sorry for the OT post, but these tidbits of history will just disappear if we don't make note of them now and then.
 
Sorry for the OT post, but these tidbits of history will just disappear if we don't make note of them now and then.
No more off topic that where this thread has gone. Anyway, Magic Fingers was ubiquitous in its day. The History Guy did an episode on it.


BTW, I see no reference to Cessna calling their autopilot Magic Fingers. It appears that it was called Nav-o-matic. Perhaps early units had a tendency to vibrate the aircraft, so pilots dubbed it Magic Fingers. Given that everyone was familiar with the motel bed amenity, it's very unlikely that Cessna would infringe on a trademark for a name associated with an undesirable flight characteristic.
 
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I just did a 2500+ mile road trip with the recall update and I'm happy Autopilot works mostly the same as it did before. The only real difference is the larger text with more visible placement, and it seems to notice a bit quicker if I look away from straight ahead. Other than that it's the same Autopilot in my opinion, which is a good thing to me.

Very minor "recall".