Tesla recalls 2 million vehicles to limit use of Autopilot

[DuncanM]

Sorry, but you seem to be talking in circles.

Using the scroll wheel instead of putting pressure on the wheel. It really doesn’t make a difference.

Cruise control alone isn’t autopilot in any way.

Took the wheel, vs take the wheel? Who cares?

Because you don’t like what the article said, doesn’t mean it isn’t fact.

Nope.

It does make a difference because using the scroll wheel is less likely to accidently disengage autosteer.

I never said that cruise control alone (you quoted me with that omitted) was autopilot but adaptive (or simple speed control) cruise control is the active element that will cause the car to run through stop signs and stop lights. Adaptive cruise and lane centring (which is the basis of AP) is standard or optional on just about every new car sold today, but you don't want to acknowledge that and neither does the WP article.

The thousands of comments about the article make it clear that most people don't understand how AP works and the wording is misleading since it implies that the car took over control from the driver.

I don't like what the article says because it doesn't state that AP (ACC and Lane centering) is offered by most non-Tesla cars and it would be calling for a complete ban on all manufactures versions of AP (ACC and Lane centering) in urban areas rather than singling out Tesla.

 

[zoomer0056]

Cruise control is part of the autopilot system, but cruise control by itself is not autopilot.

Yes, TACC is one feature of Autopilot, we agree. Autopilot is a collection of features. Autopilot is active if any or all of its features are active. TACC and Autosteer are features of Autopilot. Activation of any Autopilot feature by itself or in conjuction with another feature constitutes activation of Autopilot. I've read more than once where someone incorrectly says "I thought Autopilot was on, but only TACC was on." They're equating Autopilot with Autosteer. However, with TACC but no Autosteer, Autopilot is active. With single press activation now, you can also activate Autosteer without TACC. Autopilot is also active in that case.

 

[Dewg]

Yes, TACC is one feature of Autopilot, we agree. Autopilot is a collection of features. Autopilot is active if any or all of its features are active. TACC and Autosteer are features of Autopilot. Activation of any Autopilot feature by itself or in conjuction with another feature constitutes activation of Autopilot. I've read more than once where someone incorrectly says "I thought Autopilot was on, but only TACC was on." They're equating Autopilot with Autosteer. However, with TACC but no Autosteer, Autopilot is active. With single press activation now, you can also activate Autosteer without TACC. Autopilot is also active in that case.

And as confusing as all that is - people want a 'dumb cruise control' feature - imagine trying to figure out which of the modes are running: DCC, TACC, AP, or FSD Beta.

Someone suggested that a red or blue bar should be at the very top, above speed limit, that just says what mode you're in.

 

[OxBrew]

So OK, most other car companies have lane centering too. How many of them are being investigated for a spike in fatalities from mis-use of their systems? I really don't know.

If the answer is none, then why is that? Would it be that they never created confusion in their users minds about what the hell it actually was?

 

[Dewg]

So OK, most other car companies have lane centering too. How many of them are being investigated for a spike in fatalities from mis-use of their systems? I really don't know.

If the answer is none, then why is that? Would it be that they never created confusion in their users minds about what the hell it actually was?

The data isn't being collected right not. NHTSA is going to request that data for L2 from MFGs sometime this year. It'll be eye opening.

 

[DrGriz]

The data isn't being collected right not. NHTSA is going to request that data for L2 from MFGs sometime this year. It'll be eye opening.

While they are at it, they really should be collecting data on "Plain Ol' Cruise Control." Because, really.

 

[fholbert]

I've read more than once where someone incorrectly says "I thought Autopilot was on, but only TACC was on."

They made a movie about those people.

 

[zoomer0056]

They made a movie about those people.

View attachment 1005114

Ha, thanks for the laugh ! I never saw that movie.

 

[zroger73]

So OK, most other car companies have lane centering too. How many of them are being investigated for a spike in fatalities from mis-use of their systems? I really don't know.

If the answer is none, then why is that? Would it be that they never created confusion in their users minds about what the hell it actually was?

Based on my experience owning several Hondas and Mazdas with a "lane keeping" (not lane centering) feature, I suspect far fewer people actually use that feature than use Autosteer. The lane keeping feature in my non-Tesla vehicles is less useful than Autosteer in that:

• Very little steering force will disengage the feature - it's hard to find a balance that will suppress nags without disengaging it
• It doesn't work at low speeds (Honda recently introduced a feature called "Traffic Jam Assist" that does allow the auto steering to work down to a stop)
• "Nagging" is more frequent and intrusive (visual and audible warnings)
• The feature doesn't keep the vehicle centered in the lane nearly as well as Autosteer - it won't normally leave the lane, but it often slowly oscillates from one side of the lane to the other
• It doesn't apply nearly as much steering torque as Autosteer causing the feature to disengage in anything other than the gentlest of curves
• It frequently misinterprets crack and skid marks as lane markings and tries to position the vehicle incorrectly or sometimes fails to recognize lane markings even when they are clearly visible

I actually use Autosteer for the majority of my drives. I almost never used lane keeping systems on my non-Teslas because I found it more annoying than useful.

 

[fholbert]

Reason 1076 why Tesla AP should only be allowed on the highways.

Model Y Driving with FSD Accident

All, This is my first time to leave a post in this website and I just want to share some experience with you all. My wife was driving the Model Y with FSD driving in the local. The vehicle was driving in location A of figure below (left lane of two lanes on Spring Cypress Rd). The vehicle...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[MP3Mike]

Reason 1076 why Tesla AP should only be allowed on the highways.

Model Y Driving with FSD Accident

All, This is my first time to leave a post in this website and I just want to share some experience with you all. My wife was driving the Model Y with FSD driving in the local. The vehicle was driving in location A of figure below (left lane of two lanes on Spring Cypress Rd). The vehicle...

teslamotorsclub.com

That wasn't AP.

 

[fholbert]

That wasn't AP.

We don't consider FSD an AP?

 

[MP3Mike]

We don't consider FSD an AP?

Nope. Completely different products. One is designed for city streets usage, the other is not.

 

[OxBrew]

We don't consider FSD an AP?

Nope. Completely different products. One is designed for city streets usage, the other is not.

So I thought not one single Tesla owner is confused about AP vs. FSD?

lol, that's literally the entire point of this recall/update, yet it still fails to clarify and limit each to its actual ODD.

The entire issue could be solved if AP simply could not be engaged anywhere it is not designed to be used. I've never understood why it can be engaged in places Tesla explicitly says not to use it.

 

[uscbucsfan]

So I thought not one single Tesla owner is confused about AP vs. FSD?

lol, that's literally the entire point of this recall/update, yet it still fails to clarify and limit each to its actual ODD.

The entire issue could be solved if AP simply could not be engaged anywhere it is not designed to be used. I've never understood why it can be engaged in places Tesla explicitly says not to use it.

Because Tesla sells that it can be used everywhere. It's pretty buried where Tesla says not to use it, intentionally.

Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability | Tesla Support

Autopilot is an advanced driver assistance system that enhances safety and convenience behind the wheel. When used properly, Autopilot reduces your overall workload as a driver. Learn more about Autopilot.

www.tesla.com

 

[DrGriz]

So I thought not one single Tesla owner is confused about AP vs. FSD?

lol, that's literally the entire point of this recall/update, yet it still fails to clarify and limit each to its actual ODD.

The entire issue could be solved if AP simply could not be engaged anywhere it is not designed to be used. I've never understood why it can be engaged in places Tesla explicitly says not to use it.

It's fair to ask why NHTSA did not restrict engagement. I would guess that they have their reasons.

Maybe because they know that perfect is the enemy of good.

 

[zoomer0056]

We don't consider FSD an AP?

No.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So OK, most other car companies have lane centering too. How many of them are being investigated for a spike in fatalities from mis-use of their systems? I really don't know.

If the answer is none, then why is that?

Most of them don't have automatic reporting of accidents that occur with L2 driving, while Tesla does. Also Tesla by far is the system most in use, in most volume, and out for longest of the systems with automatic reporting (plus doesn't require a monthly subscription for that reporting to work).

As another mentioned NHTSA is gathering data but it will take while and the data is of limited use from most manufacturers given they don't automatically report to the automaker (instead the owner had to do the reporting or indirectly from police reports). This is unlikely to change much given the order does not require the manufacturer to install automatic accident reporting, so ignorance is bliss, given manufacturers with such systems show up disproportionately.

Standing General Order on Crash Reporting | NHTSA

NHTSA has issued a General Order requiring the reporting of crashes involving automated driving systems or Level 2 advanced driver assistance systems.

www.nhtsa.gov

Would it be that they never created confusion in their users minds about what the hell it actually was?

There's zero evidence actual owners being confused about what AP is contributed to accidents. The ones who get into accidents are those fully aware of how the system works. People confused are the public that never used it, but once someone has even cursory experience, they know the car can't drive itself. So basically the only scenario where it might be a factor is a first time user, but first time users naturally do not trust the system and thus far there's no evidence of first time users getting into accidents.

Just to use the example, after the car blows through an intersection one or two times, it's blatantly obvious it doesn't stop for them. People claiming otherwise are being disingenuous.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So I thought not one single Tesla owner is confused about AP vs. FSD?

lol, that's literally the entire point of this recall/update, yet it still fails to clarify and limit each to its actual ODD.

The entire issue could be solved if AP simply could not be engaged anywhere it is not designed to be used. I've never understood why it can be engaged in places Tesla explicitly says not to use it.

It's fair to ask why NHTSA did not restrict engagement. I would guess that they have their reasons.

Maybe because they know that perfect is the enemy of good.

Engagement is already restricted (steering wheel grayed out). However, it doesn't disengage when it reaches into an area that wouldn't have allowed you to engage. The safety logic is the system automatically disengaging may be more dangerous than it keep running and the driver disengaging as they see fit.

Also for other systems, you can keep lane keeping on even on city roads, it would be a double standard to have Tesla strictly disable it, and not do the same to other manufacturers.

Also for the red light/stop sign running, that's more of a TACC thing and no ACC system currently has geofence limitations. The assumption is the driver is not stupid enough not to realize it doesn't stop for those (especially after testing it out a few times).

 

[uscbucsfan]

Most of them don't have automatic reporting of accidents that occur with L2 driving, while Tesla does. Also Tesla by far is the system most in use, in most volume, and out for longest of the systems with automatic reporting (plus doesn't require a monthly subscription for that reporting to work).

As another mentioned NHTSA is gathering data but it will take while and the data is of limited use from most manufacturers given they don't automatically report to the automaker (instead the owner had to do the reporting or indirectly from police reports). This is unlikely to change much given the order does not require the manufacturer to install automatic accident reporting, so ignorance is bliss, given manufacturers with such systems show up disproportionately.

Standing General Order on Crash Reporting | NHTSA

NHTSA has issued a General Order requiring the reporting of crashes involving automated driving systems or Level 2 advanced driver assistance systems.

www.nhtsa.gov

There's zero evidence actual owners being confused about what AP is contributed to accidents. The ones who get into accidents are those fully aware of how the system works. People confused are the public that never used it, but once someone has even cursory experience, they know the car can't drive itself. So basically the only scenario where it might be a factor is a first time user, but first time users naturally do not trust the system and thus far there's no evidence of first time users getting into accidents.

Just to use the example, after the car blows through an intersection one or two times, it's blatantly obvious it doesn't stop for them. People claiming otherwise are being disingenuous.

There are multiple threads where Tesla owners are confused. There was a thread posted here where a guy's wife wrecked with FSD who had very little clue about how the system works.

Many seemingly are confused.