Tesla recalls 2 million vehicles to limit use of Autopilot

[sublimejackman]

Thank you. This is all very interesting. I also read the description of the various offerings here: https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot

So even basic Autopilot supposedly has "Autosteer" (per the linked material), but what Autosteer is seems to depend on whether you've got AP, Enhanced AP, or FSD?

It looks to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Autosteer with standard AP is basically just what we Ford folks would call "lane centering." If the MobileEye camera system can read the lane markers, it'll "steer" enough to keep you centered in the lane, but it isn't going to take turns, stop at signs, etc. Currently, my Mach E can use the lane centering and adaptive cruise control (now confusingly referred to as "Hands-ON BlueCruise") anywhere we want. City, highway, whatever. But we have an eye sensor that'll ping you if you look away from the road for more than 5 seconds (it works remarkably well), and a torque sensor that'll nag if it doesn't detect a hand on the wheel for 8 seconds. The torque sensor isn't perfect - it'll sometimes nag even if you do have a hand lightly on the wheel.

Enhanced AP looks like the car will basically drive itself on highways, including automatic lane changes, ramp to ramp, plus a few other party tricks (summon, etc.) This is slightly better than "Hands-Free BlueCruise," (the newest HFBC 1.3 will suggest lane changes and execute them on command, but doesn't do them automatically), but HFBC has the significant advantage of being truly hands-free. The torque sensor is deactivated on these divided highways and relies solely on the infrared eye sensor. It works well. Ford has proposed charging $800/yr for HFBC, but I don't think that price is going to stick. I have the ability to renew my free trial of HFBC for $600 total (plus tax, LOL) for a three-year term, which seems much more reasonable. Enhanced AP costs $99 a month?! Dayum.

Then with FSD, you get all the above, but the car drives itself on city streets (takes turns, stops at signs, etc.) For $199/mo a month. And you still technically have to keep your hands on the wheel. Plus there's a cabin cam which may not work so great in low light situations? Plus there's a strike system which can really eff with people based on false strikes?

So do I have all that right? And if I do, here's my next question... If Tesla significantly tightens up its torque sensor with this "recall" to be more in line with Ford's (that's my suspicion), nagging you after a few seconds of not detecting a hand... wouldn't that make the Enhanced AP and FSD offerings a lot less appealing? If you have to keep a hand on the wheel, what is the value? Or do you think Tesla might try to use the cabin cam to bypass the torque sensor (like HFBC)?

Yep. I agree with this assessment. Tesla's EAP has been functionally identical, just now with more nags, since NAP was released 5 years ago. It was never going to work on city streets and backroads, but Tesla really didn't make a good enough distinction in their marketing.

I honestly think that Tesla's plan was just to fake it until they made it to true FSD. Unfortunately true FSD is kinda like fusion, it's always 5 years away. Driving is far more social, complex and dynamic than Tesla originally thought 7 years ago when this all started.

Now there is little difference between what Ford and Tesla have available today (and I mean today, not 5 years from now). In fact I would argue that having something actually handsfree is preferable.

 

[johnnyruz]

Enhanced AP costs $99 a month?! Dayum.

Then with FSD, you get all the above, but the car drives itself on city streets (takes turns, stops at signs, etc.) For $199/mo a month.

This is slightly incorrect just on the pricing. If you purchased Enhanced AP (currently $6k USD) you can enabled the FSD features via subscription for $99/month. If you did not purchase EAP, you can enable FSD (which includes all the EAP features) for $199/month. There is no option (that I am aware of in the US) to just enable the EAP features via a subscription.

 

[canasion35]

Where is the evidence that all of these accidents are actually happening? And really it caused an accident "with NO CAR in sight"?

I think NHTSA still has an investigation going on this. Give it a few more years.

I’m merely speaking on multiple first hand accounts where my 2022 car on AP will absolutely slam on the brakes on the HWY bringing me from ~75 mph to ~ 28 mph with no cars around I.E phantom breaking.

In my opinion that is not safe, and have read articles of similar actions from AP ultimately resulting in an accident.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Yep. I agree with this assessment. Tesla's EAP has been functionally identical, just now with more nags, since NAP was released 5 years ago. It was never going to work on city streets and backroads, but Tesla really didn't make a good enough distinction in their marketing.

I honestly think that Tesla's plan was just to fake it until they made it to true FSD. Unfortunately true FSD is kinda like fusion, it's always 5 years away. Driving is far more social, complex and dynamic than Tesla originally thought 7 years ago when this all started.

Now there is little difference between what Ford and Tesla have available today (and I mean today, not 5 years from now). In fact I would argue that having something actually handsfree is preferable.

I agree with most of this and there is little difference between Blue Cruise and EAP, but Ford doesn't have anything that can or is aspiring to do what FSD can do currently.

 

[gillmj24]

Yes I know that, but the AP1 system has been free from nerfs and updates for many years, so this is an interesting change.

Is there going to be an update pushed on us AP1/MCU1 cars that hardly get updates in general?

Will I not be able to autosteer except on highways?

This will be a big downgrade. I had a Nissan Leaf with Propilot, that autosteered only on the highway. It would sometimes work on side streets with 2 lanes, until the lane lines momentarily disappeared in an intersection. It worked well and I enjoyed it. It was my first experience with such a feature.

But I've gotten very used to AP1's "propilot at all speeds" the past year.

 

[advocate8]

I think most of it is knowing that media will headline their articles with "recall", then explain that it's an over-the-air update of the software in the article. But web troglodytes will see the headline and not read the article (because reading articles is for losers), and then go off and pronounce on how Teslas are badly built. Everyone knows that recalls are for things like engines throwing a rod, seatbelts that don't work, etc.

I just watched a lengthy video from some joker who was telling his viewers that a Kia EV was going to need a replacement battery and it would cost more than the original price of the car. No statistics on what it costs to replace batteries in EVs, nor on the odds of needing to replace a battery, no information on different suppliers, trends over time, etc. Just that one anecdote. What were the comments like? "Thanks for this wonderful explanation. Now I know the truth." People who think EVs are bad will latch onto anything to reinforce that mindset.

My eyes roll so often over EV misinformation that I'm worried about my vision.

OK, but specifically on this issue, what is the solution? headline writers have very very few words to use. They can’t explain what OTA means and still have space to say what the “recall” is for. They can only say “recall” then leave the lengthy explaination for the story itself.
What needs to happen is there needs to be a new word adopted by feds for this new category of fixes they are ordering from carmakers. For now, the headline people have no options.

 

[modl3mike]

My wife took delivery of a new Model Y a few days ago and I believe it already has this “recall” fix. I was wondering why Autosteer was so different than my 3, which I haven’t updated in a few months.

For those wondering what the fix entails

1. FSD beta style lockout. After 5 disengagements for not addressing nags, you cannot use Autosteer for some period of time
2. More nags, both to pay attention to the road and to keep your hands on the wheel. You have to look at the screen to know what it wants you to do. Sometimes the nags are instant when you engage Autosteer. For example, if you engage Autosteer while looking at the screen you get instant beeps.
3. More prominent nags on the screen. They now show at the top of the visualization initially instead of the bottom.
4. Option/setting for simplified Autosteer engagement with single pull
5. If single pull is enabled, it also simplifies disengagement by no longer switching you to TACC if you disengage by turning the wheel
6. Thankfully I haven’t yet noticed any difference on where it allows Autosteer to be engaged, though I haven’t done a ton of testing

The car is on factory software 2023.38.200.1 which includes FSD Beta 11.4.4
Here's a screenshot of what I think is the new Autosteer lockout warning

 

[sublimejackman]

The car is on factory software 2023.38.200.1 which includes FSD Beta 11.4.4
Here's a screenshot of what I think is the new Autosteer lockout warning
View attachment 999385

I don't have FSD, so forgive my ignorance. Does this imply that it will be permanantly locked out? Or is there a cooling off period?

 

[HitchHiker71]

Recall can mean any kind or repair in the new paradigm with OTA updates. I don't know why everyone is getting all bunched up about the word "recall."

It's a legally required repair or update. It simply no longer means you have to take the car in, or don't have to take it in.

It's a recall. OK, whatever, get over it. The word has a new meaning.

Actually I'd say that the word recall is completely accurate. NHTSA recalls are safety recalls. How/what the vehicle manufacturer has to do to remediate the recall is entirely disparate from the recall itself. Just because historically vehicles have had recalls remediated via dealership visits - vs OTA updates - is immaterial with respect to the NHTSA recall itself. How people perceive something is just that, perception, and perceptions change over time, but the recall process itself, has nothing to do with managing customer perceptions. These perceptions will change over time. The NHTSA process works fine despite the perception issues that people seem to be complaining about here. This process also has nothing to do with how certain mass media outlets represent the recall process. NHTSA has no control over, for example, how CNN publishes their clickbait headlines or the actual content in the articles. Using a different word isn't going to prevent the media from doing so either.

 

[sublimejackman]

I agree with most of this and there is little difference between Blue Cruise and EAP, but Ford doesn't have anything that can or is aspiring to do what FSD can do currently.

Yeah but FSD doesn't really do anything today. Like it's a great tech demo and it serves the purpose of training the AI. But from a driving perspective, it doesn't achieve anything. If anything, for the average jim or jane driver, it would be detrimental to getting them to their destiantion.

Tesla has an approach to the self-driving problem, but it has yet to be proven the right way. Other companines are attempting to tackle the problem different ways. Maybe Tesla gets to a real robotaxi first (and I think they probably will) but that's far from guarenteed in 2023.

AP in 2023 is no longer a technological advantage over other car companies. AP in 2023 is really no better than it was in 2018 and the other companies have caught up.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Yeah but FSD doesn't really do anything today. Like it's a great tech demo and it serves the purpose of training the AI. But from a driving perspective, it doesn't achieve anything. If anything, for the average jim or jane driver, it would be detrimental to getting them to their destiantion.

Tesla has an approach to the self-driving problem, but it has yet to be proven the right way. Other companines are attempting to tackle the problem different ways. Maybe Tesla gets to a real robotaxi first (and I think they probably will) but that's far from guarenteed in 2023.

AP in 2023 is no longer a technological advantage over other car companies. AP in 2023 is really no better than it was in 2018 and the other companies have caught up.

That's absolutely false.

FSD is not the promised level 4/5, but it absolutely drives 98% of the time for me.

Yes, it makes occasional completely ****ed up choices, but it absolutely makes it easier for me to drive places and I initiate it as soon as I pull out the driveway until I get to a parking lot.

No one else has something that can do that currently for consumers.

 

[fholbert]

Recall can mean any kind or repair in the new paradigm with OTA updates. I don't know why everyone is getting all bunched up about the word "recall."

It's a legally required repair or update. It simply no longer means you have to take the car in, or don't have to take it in.

It's a recall. OK, whatever, get over it. The word has a new meaning.

Recall can mean throwing a package of food in the trash. It doesn’t always mean taking your Tesla to the Service Center.

 

[EVNow]

Like it's a great tech demo

I've been using the "tech demo" for 95% of my driving the past couple of years !

 

[MP3Mike]

Yeah but FSD doesn't really do anything today. Like it's a great tech demo and it serves the purpose of training the AI. But from a driving perspective, it doesn't achieve anything.

That certainly isn't the FSD Beta that I am using. It handles about 97% of my driving, and I have very few disengagements.

Recently I decided to recalibrate my cameras, and I had to actually drive manually for about 20 miles while they finished recalibrating. That made me realize that I will never buy another car that doesn't have FSD capabilities.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Right...saying it's a tech demo kills any credibility there. If you hate FSD and call it FSDJ, it does what no other car available to consumers can do.

 

[sublimejackman]

Recall can mean any kind or repair in the new paradigm with OTA updates. I don't know why everyone is getting all bunched up about the word "recall."

It's a legally required repair or update. It simply no longer means you have to take the car in, or don't have to take it in.

It's a recall. OK, whatever, get over it. The word has a new meaning.

Exactly! Recall just means that there is a safety issue that the regulatory agency and manufacturer have agreed on. In this case a "defect" that Tesla is addressing.

 

[sublimejackman]

Right...saying it's a tech demo kills any credibility there. If you hate FSD and call it FSDJ, it does what no other car available to consumers can do.

Why would I hate a piece of software? It's not Microsoft.

FSD is cool. It really is, just isn't what we were promised all those moons ago. Mass adoption is years away, at best. For the few hundred thousand American Tesla owners who use it, great! I'm not trying to take that away. It just isn't a market differentiator yet.

 

[EVNow]

Exactly! Recall just means that there is a safety issue that the regulatory agency and manufacturer have agreed on. In this case a "defect" that Tesla is addressing.

Its an anachronism ... no need to defend or sugarcoat it.

It just isn't a market differentiator yet.

I disagree ... it adds to the brand image.

Why would I hate a piece of software? It's not Microsoft.

Hmmm ... last time I checked, the company I worked for is not a ... piece of software !

 

[sublimejackman]

I disagree ... it adds to the brand image.

Brand image?! Man, that's what I'm trying to defend here. Every time Tesla lies, stretches the truth, ofuscates range, etc... that tarnishes the brand image. And that's just the start of the image issues Tesla has. God help you if you need service (or interact with any Tesla employee for that matter).


FSD is useless to 99% of drivers in 2023. Even more so at a five figure price tag. If anything the luddites and short sellers are being fueled by these pie in sky claims that FSD is somehow better then just driving your car in 2023.

Hmmm ... last time I checked, the company I worked for is not a ... piece of software !

It's a pain in my rear, that's what Microsoft is.

 

[MP3Mike]

Release notes for the "recall" from this post:

2. Over-the-Air (OTA) Recall
In accordance with a recent recall (campaign # 23V-838 for US and # 2023-657 for Canada) Tesla is making the following improvements to Autosteer:
— Improved visibility of driver monitoring warning alerts on the touchscreen by increasing the text size and moving the notifications to a more prominent position (Model 3 & Y only)
— Added option to activate Autopilot with a single stalk press, instead of two, to help simplify activation and disengagement
— Increased strictness of driver attention requirements when using Autosteer and approaching traffic lights and stop signs off highway
— Introduced a suspension policy that will restrict Autosteer for one week if improper usage is detected. Improper usage is when you, or another driver of your vehicle receive five "Forced Autopilot Disengagements"

No mention of requiring the camera to be uncovered...

Looks like a nothing burger. (Just bringing standard Autosteer up to current with what Tesla has done to FSDb with nags/lockout, and the addition of more visible notices and strictness around traffic controls, which isn't really necessary in FSDb.)