Tesla replacing ultrasonic sensors with Tesla Vision

[texas_star_TM3]

I agree that some comments are completely whacked - just not which comments they are.

Yes, the cameras and occupancy NNs are capable of forming the visualizations shown in your image, but did you get out and make measurements to ensure that the cars are shown at accurate proportional distance from your car? If you had, I think you would have found that these are basically rough estimates (and that includes the lines). The ultrasonics are far more capable of establishing exact distances than the cameras at these close distances. That's why the autopark, park assist, and summon on Teslas currently use them. In addition, every other car manufacturer - even those that can generate a real "360 degree overhead" or birds-eye image (Tesla's being more of an animated approximation) - use ultrasonics for autopark and park assist features.

So Tesla is betting they can make the cameras work just as well as the ultrasonics in these cases, despite both the loss in resolution in distance measurement and the awkward positions of the cameras for this type of function. Those that are making comments that you consider "whacked" are betting they can't. It remains to be seen who will be right.

when you park into a tight spot - accuracy down to just +/- 1 or 2 inches *really* matters. ultrasonic sensors easily achieve that. maybe the 1.2MP (...) cameras Tesla uses are capable of that... but I'm doubtful

 

[Darmie]

I think they are relying on occupancy network more and more.
If the cameras and computer can come up with this, then why not.

A Look at Tesla's Occupancy Networks

In 2022, Tesla announced a brand new algorithm about to be released in their vehicles. This algorithm is named occupancy networks, and it is supposed to improve the HydraNets from Tesla. But how does it work? Why is it needed? Let's find out... Why a new kind of algorithm is

www.thinkautonomous.ai

 

[Darmie]

In this video He was mentioning that the sensors are already not being used on FSD Beta.

 

[mongo]

when you park into a tight spot - accuracy down to just +/- 1 or 2 inches *really* matters. ultrasonic sensors easily achieve that. maybe the 1.2MP (...) cameras Tesla uses are capable of that... but I'm doubtful

Bosch ultrasonic sensors are listed as hsving a minimun measurable distance of 15cm (6 inches). At what distance does the Tesla parking display go to 'stop'?

 

[mongo]

I thought Tesla recently (few months ago) moved away from training off post-processed imagery and instead are now training directly from the raw camera data. I never dug into the details, but it would seem to have similar advantages of working with photographic RAW data instead of a heavy lossy, post-processed JPG. There was also some compute efficiencies involved, since there was no need to convert the raw data to an image (a data construct needed by humans) first, and training off imagery required more compute than just dealing with the raw pixel data.

Also, I recall that even in the days when Tesla was training off imagery, those images were much more high fidelity than the crap that's shown to us via dashcam/sentry.

Yeah, raw photon counts. Gives 4 more bits of range and removes 13mS of latency/ processing time.

 

[Mardak]

At what distance does the Tesla parking display go to 'stop'?

It shows STOP at 12 inches, but theoretically Tesla could calculate how much closer it has moved even if ultrasonic sensors have poor accuracy at closer ranges. But then that's extra engineering effort to filter out noisy readings to ignore and fall back to some other heuristic.

It seems like the Occupancy network already accounts for vehicle movement to update predicted positioning/distances of objects. Unclear if Tesla will try to use an even finer occupancy for parking situations similar to what was shown with Optimus:

If the flat shelf utility cart is indeed 44" long and 25" wide, it seems like ~25 boxes long and ~15 boxes wide would match up to a resolution of about 1.7"-1.8" or 4.2cm-4.5cm.

 

[snorp]

Tesla just called saying I've been assigned a VIN for a vehicle with no parking sensors. I kindly asked for a car with parking sensors and was told no. The rep went on this long diatribe about how vision is the future and sensors are no longer needed in Teslas.

I asked if I could cancel my order and receive a refund and was told no. I asked about bait and switch and the rep told me that since parking sensors aren't selectable on the configuration page, that Tesla has the right, as per the order agreement, to change anything (not selectable on the configuration page) that they like prior to delivery. I said that I would like to have an attorney review the document to determine if that was true, at which point he quickly got off the phone and texted me to contact [email protected] if I wanted to pursue legal action. He also texted that they would remove the vin and cancel the order, neither of which I asked for them to do. I texted back to please not do that but no response.

I'll probably cancel and eat the $250. My golf cart parks behind my M3 and I have to get super snug to the wall for everything to fit. I use the sensors every day for this. I don't need a new M3.

I love the products and hate the company.

 

[YNoVA]

Tesla just called saying I've been assigned a VIN for a vehicle with no parking sensors. I kindly asked for a car with parking sensors and was told no. The rep went on this long diatribe about how vision is the future and sensors are no longer needed in Teslas.

I asked if I could cancel my order and receive a refund and was told no. I asked about bait and switch and the rep told me that since parking sensors aren't selectable on the configuration page, that Tesla has the right, as per the order agreement, to change anything (not selectable on the configuration page) that they like prior to delivery. I said that I would like to have an attorney review the document to determine if that was true, at which point he quickly got off the phone and texted me to contact [email protected] if I wanted to pursue legal action. He also texted that they would remove the vin and cancel the order, neither of which I asked for them to do. I texted back to please not do that but no response.

I'll probably cancel and eat the $250. My golf cart parks behind my M3 and I have to get super snug to the wall for everything to fit. I use the sensors every day for this. I don't need a new M3.

I love the products and hate the company.

LMAO this is a bit much

Tesla makes unannounced changes to their vehicles all the time. I guarantee you in the agreement that it states that the car may not have the same features as it did when its ordered. If not then Tesla will be contacted by a lot of attorneys.

 

[mongo]

It shows STOP at 12 inches, but theoretically Tesla could calculate how much closer it has moved even if ultrasonic sensors have poor accuracy at closer ranges. But then that's extra engineering effort to filter out noisy readings to ignore and fall back to some other heuristic.

It seems like the Occupancy network already accounts for vehicle movement to update predicted positioning/distances of objects. Unclear if Tesla will try to use an even finer occupancy for parking situations similar to what was shown with Optimus:

If the flat shelf utility cart is indeed 44" long and 25" wide, it seems like ~25 boxes long and ~15 boxes wide would match up to a resolution of about 1.7"-1.8" or 4.2cm-4.5cm.

Thanks! My searches had said 12 inches, but I was guarding for improvement to Bosch spec or other SW wizardry.

So, at a minimum, Vision needs to alert to objects 12 inches or closer, and to be at parity, provide 1 inch resolution distances beyond that to 36 inches?

I think in the AI Day talk they called out per pixel voxel mapping, so the Optimus images may be downsampled.

 

[texas_star_TM3]

Thanks! My searches had said 12 inches, but I was guarding for improvement to Bosch spec or other SW wizardry.

So, at a minimum, Vision needs to alert to objects 12 inches or closer, and to be at parity, provide 1 inch resolution distances beyond that to 36 inches?

I think in the AI Day talk they called out per pixel voxel mapping, so the Optimus images may be downsampled.

if a low resolution 1.2MP camera and some machine learning can calculate distances - even in adverse conditions (think parking at night in a dark spot) - down to just 12 inches or better... why in the world did Apple put LIDAR into the latest iphones to enhance measurement of distances???

 

[texas_star_TM3]

LMAO this is a bit much

Tesla makes unannounced changes to their vehicles all the time. I guarantee you in the agreement that it states that the car may not have the same features as it did when its ordered. If not then Tesla will be contacted by a lot of attorneys.

i would argue that a crucial feature like "park assist" (standard on most cars...) cannot simply be removed - pardon "coming soon" - without allowing the buyer to cancel the purchase...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla just called saying I've been assigned a VIN for a vehicle with no parking sensors. I kindly asked for a car with parking sensors and was told no. The rep went on this long diatribe about how vision is the future and sensors are no longer needed in Teslas.

I asked if I could cancel my order and receive a refund and was told no. I asked about bait and switch and the rep told me that since parking sensors aren't selectable on the configuration page, that Tesla has the right, as per the order agreement, to change anything (not selectable on the configuration page) that they like prior to delivery. I said that I would like to have an attorney review the document to determine if that was true, at which point he quickly got off the phone and texted me to contact [email protected] if I wanted to pursue legal action. He also texted that they would remove the vin and cancel the order, neither of which I asked for them to do. I texted back to please not do that but no response.

I'll probably cancel and eat the $250. My golf cart parks behind my M3 and I have to get super snug to the wall for everything to fit. I use the sensors every day for this. I don't need a new M3.

I love the products and hate the company.

Note the $250 is a non refundable order fee that goes on top, not a deposit. They changed that a long while ago. There have been people that were able to get it back, but it's rare.

If you start threatening legal action, a lot of low level reps in most companies (in my experience) don't want to deal with it and will instead direct you to their legal department.

I think at this point given the bridge seemed to have been burned with your SA, I think the only choice you have is to speak to Tesla HQ (I use chat support) or if it is convenient to visit a store, maybe speak to someone else at your local store (maybe a manager).

Tesla SSO - Sign In

 

[YNoVA]

i would argue that a crucial feature like "park assist" (standard on most cars...) cannot simply be removed - pardon "coming soon" - without allowing the buyer to cancel the purchase...

There is no chance that Tesla hasn't thought about the implications of removing a feature and thus having people get refunds for their orders. It's absolutely in the agreement somewhere.

 

[stopcrazypp]

if a low resolution 1.2MP camera and some machine learning can calculate distances - even in adverse conditions (think parking at night in a dark spot) - down to just 12 inches or better... why in the world did Apple put LIDAR into the latest iphones to enhance measurement of distances???

Apple is using it for face scanning and 3D object scanning. That requires a lot more accuracy than regular driving requires.

 

[2101Guy]

Did you pay the $250 with a credit card? If so…

And if that doesn’t work? Usually under $50 and ten mins to file in small claims and that includes service to legal agent rep.

Guess how many large companies actually settle when served vs spending more money on going to small claims…even if they feel they are in the right.

(And no…many states don’t care about mandatory arbitration clauses in cases like this )

MOST

 

[fobo]

I said that I would like to have an attorney review the document to determine if that was true,

Lol what did you expect the outcome would be? As if you’re going to pay an attorney hundreds or thousands of dollars over parking sensors

 

[Brolan]

They changed the car between when you ordered it and when it was delivered. Absolutely you deserve all your money back. Mention you will file a complaint with your state attorney general and that should get them moving.

 

[MP3Mike]

I asked if I could cancel my order and receive a refund and was told no. I asked about bait and switch and the rep told me that since parking sensors aren't selectable on the configuration page, that Tesla has the right, as per the order agreement, to change anything (not selectable on the configuration page) that they like prior to delivery.

You should check your order agreement, but even the current one specifically contradicts that:

No Resellers; Discontinuation; Cancellation. Tesla and its affiliates sell cars directly to end-consumers, and we may unilaterally cancel any order that we believe has been made with a view toward resale of the Vehicle or that has otherwise been made in bad faith, and we’ll keep your Order Fee, Order Deposit and Transportation Fee. This includes orders for which a third-party is facilitating or brokering the sale, or if the vehicles are to be exported to somewhere other than where you tell us you will be registering the Vehicle. We may also cancel your order and refund your Order Fee, Order Deposit and Transportation Fee if we discontinue a product, feature or option after the time you place your order. We work to fulfill your order as quickly as we can. If you become unresponsive to us or fail to complete a requested action to progress towards delivery of your Vehicle, we may cancel your order and keep your Order Fee, Order Deposit and Transportation Fee. Alternatively, Tesla may give you the option to reconfigure your Vehicle at the current pricing.

 

[mongo]

if a low resolution 1.2MP camera and some machine learning can calculate distances - even in adverse conditions (think parking at night in a dark spot) - down to just 12 inches or better... why in the world did Apple put LIDAR into the latest iphones to enhance measurement of distances???

Tesla is 8 cameras (not all looking at the same spot of course) plus wheel rotation sensors, plus fairly constant ground height and lower rate vehicle dynamics, plus a 75W compute budget feeding dual 73 TOPS (int8) proccesing units.

 

[jabloomf1230]

if a low resolution 1.2MP camera and some machine learning can calculate distances - even in adverse conditions (think parking at night in a dark spot) - down to just 12 inches or better... why in the world did Apple put LIDAR into the latest iphones to enhance measurement of distances???

Here's a better question. How often does the average person use their phone to measure distance? I remember doing it once.