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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Won't @The Accountant 's bullish numbers in this public forum raise expectations and undermine the advantage of actual bullish numbers on the SP?
No. If wall st actually updates its estimates to align with bullish forecasts, then analyst price targets will increase, which will provide additional catalysts for the stock to rise more gradually rather than jump excessively on earnings (or P&D) dates.

That would be the theory of an efficient market anyways.

And one where market makers don’t manipulate stock prices. 🤭
 
I follow these Gigafactory Austin videos pretty closely - yesterday's activity has just gone into overdrive. With the stock in the doldrums, it's a good reminder that Tesla not only continues to push forward, they are accelerating the rate of progress (kinda like this factory). The sheer number of worker vehicles and the time lapse at the end gives insight into the frenzied pace. Watch the whole thing on 2X speed for full effect.

Trying to beat Gigafactory Berlin to production?


I think Berlin has a target date for the start of production July/August.

My guess on Austin Model Y is October/November.

And Austin Cybertruck December/January/February.

So this time next year Austin and Berlin Model Y should have ramped to significant numbers, and Cybertruck should be ramping.

The Shanghai factory expansion should complete, and probably contributing to more production.

Model 2, or whatever it is called, should have been revealed and construction underway for it in Shanghai, with more construction at Berlin and Austin.

We will be watching drone videos of factory builds for at least another year.
 
I follow these Gigafactory Austin videos pretty closely - yesterday's activity has just gone into overdrive. With the stock in the doldrums, it's a good reminder that Tesla not only continues to push forward, they are accelerating the rate of progress (kinda like this factory). The sheer number of worker vehicles and the time lapse at the end gives insight into the frenzied pace. Watch the whole thing on 2X speed for full effect.

Trying to beat Gigafactory Berlin to production?

I was surprised at the ratio of passenger cars to pickups/SUV's there were in the construction worker parking lots. Even more surprised how few were Tesla (less than 1%). This shows just how early we are in the transition.
 
A discussion about the benefits of radar should account for how modern AI based on neural networks makes decisions. Understanding this clarifies Elon's comment about not needing radar and thinking probabilistically.

The NN AIs in Teslas are basically probability calculators. The decision making in NNs is probability based, not binary or rule based logic (e.g. not a rule like check under the car in front and see if another car is slowing down). NNs have weights (coefficients) applied to each input (pixel) of each sensor (camera, radar, etc) which generate outputs that are fed into more layers that have weights that effectively use input to predict what the proper objects are or behavior should be.

Determining the coefficients and NN models is hard, but it's easy to see that Tesla can assess the contribution of radar to the system. Try one pass without the radar, try it again with the radar, then compare the accuracy of predictions.

Arguing that radar handles certain cases is binary thinking because it assumes that a particular "case" is recognizable (aka TRUE/FALSE) and would handle it a certain way. However, NNs assign probabilities to predictions (e.g. 82.35% chance of being this situation), so it's not black or white.

There's also the matter of ROI when adding sensors. Using completely made up numbers, let say radar ($100) improves NN predictions by 5%, but adding two more cameras ($20) improves NN predictions by 10%. Clearly, Tesla is better off installing two more cameras instead of one expensive radar.

If two cameras improve NN predictions 10%, is that worth $20? After all, maybe accidents would drop from 10,000 to 9,000. That sounds like a lot, but autonomy will require 5 or more orders of magnitude improvement. In other words, reducing errors from 10,000 -> 1,000, then 1,000 -> 100, etc until it's .1 error. With such large reductions, 10% would not make a difference, because the 100,000% improvement needed from better AI models and training would dwarf a 10% improvement through additional sensors.

My numbers are made up, but Tesla knows what the real numbers are. If Tesla drops radar, it's because they have done the math that shows it does not add a material improvement, relative to improvements in FSD software.
 
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Well NASA is planning to build a moon base this decade. SpaceX might be helping them with that, thus planning some moon missions soon?

If the SEC started harassing him again, he would just say he was talking about the DearMoon mission scheduled for 2023. Is that "soon" enough to be considered "soon"? I guess it's all relative, isn't it? ;)
 
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That's EXTREMELY good news for Tesla and EV's in general!

My guess is the deal was spurred on by productive posturing by the White House for a quick settlement. Otherwise settlement likely would have taken longer.

This will increase overall battery supply in N. America and hasten the transition to EV while helping prevent a pricing spike that makes EV's unattractive without government subsidies.
 
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That's EXTREMELY good news for Tesla and EV's in general!

My guess is the deal was spurred on by productive posturing by the White House for a quick settlement. Otherwise settlement likely would have taken longer.

This will increase overall battery supply in N. America and hasten the transition to EV while helping prevent a pricing spike that makes EV's unattractive without government subsidies.


SK will go ahead with 2 GF of ~10 GWh each for a total of 20 GWh.

GF Nevada is at 39 GWh per year?

The main beneficiaries are ID.4 and electric F-150.
 
Haha Bitcoin bulls think that Elon was tweeting about Bitcoin going to moon very soon. I would be happy if they both moon very soon.

Also he said going to Moon very soon not going to the Moon very soon. Elon doesn’t usually have bad grammar does he?

It makes it harder for the SEC to continue to harass him. Imagine the SEC in court saying "Going to moon" is a very common way of saying a stock is about to pop! Because it's not. If he was talking about stock prices he would use the common expression "Going to the moon". Right?
 
Commentary here has, over the last two years, settled on Berlin being the sole supplier of MY in Europe. There are unlikely to be any MY shipments via Freemont or Shanghai before Berlin is up and running in 4-6 months.
I think there is a possibility that the UK & Ireland might see Model Y shipments from Shanghai or US, depending on capacity. While Berlin is ramping they probably dont want the extra complexity of switching to RHD models (such as those needed for UK & Ireland), whereas Shanghai & Fremont will be much further along in production ramp by the time the first Y rolls out of Berlin. Maybe would make sense for Shanghai to handle RHD models long term given the location.

Happy for someone more knowledgeable on RHD supply to correct me on this though - and possibly handling RHD production is much more trivial than I assume with minimal downtime required to switch?
 
SK will go ahead with 2 GF of ~10 GWh each for a total of 20 GWh.

GF Nevada is at 39 GWh per year?

The main beneficiaries are ID.4 and electric F-150.

The main beneficiary will be the manufacturer growing battery needs, beyond what they can produce, most rapidly. The ID4 is not going to be strong in the N. American market for a number of reasons. The electric-F-150? :D Where is it? I hope it helps them bring it to market sooner but even if it came to market next year (it won't), it's not going to slow sales of the Cybertruck for at least 6 years, if ever.

The battery market is like the oil market. While it's always a little better to source locally, it's not necessary and thus it's a global market when the sugar hits the fan. In other words, more supply is good, less supply is bad. For all players. People keep forgetting, the competition is not other EV's, it's ICE vehicles.

More batteries is mo' betta'. Hopefully they got a low royalty rate that tends towards zero over time and volume. Or a one-time cash settlement. It probably depends upon the nature of the stolen intellectual property.
 
The main beneficiary will be the manufacturer growing battery needs most rapidly. The ID4 is not going to be strong in the N. American market for a number of reasons. The electric-F-150? :D Where is it?

VW and Ford have contracts with SK I. Tesla can't use those pouch cells.

I have zero doubt VW will use their allotted 7.5 GWh for ID.4. And later Buzz.

The electric F150 will come at roughly the same time the second SK GF comes on line. 2023-24. I have zero doubt they will use their allotted batteries either. I don't see why they couldn't even switch Mach-e from LG to SK.
 
A discussion about the benefits of radar should account for how modern AI based on neural networks makes decisions. Understanding this clarifies Elon's comment about not needing radar and thinking probabilistically.

The NN AIs in Teslas are basically big probability calculators. The decision making in NNs is probability based, not binary (e.g. not check under the car in front and see if another car is slowing down). NNs have weights (coefficients) applied to each input (pixel) of each sensor (camera, radar, etc) which generate outputs that are fed into more layers that have weights that effectively use input to predict what the proper objects or behavior should be.

How to calculate the coefficients and create the models is where the magic of machine learning lies, but the point is that Tesla can assess the contribution provided by the radar to the accuracy of the system's predictions. So it's all about how much improvement there is in the accuracy of predictions, rather than specific situations because predictions are a spectrum of probabilities.

Arguing that radar handles certain cases is binary thinking because it implies that a "case" is always recognizable (TRUE) to begin with, but NNs assign probabilities to even recognizing the scenario (e.g. 82.35% probability). Also, this argument does not include ROI.

Let's look at the ROI argument with completely made up numbers. If radar ($100) improves NN predictive accuracy by 5%, but adding two more cameras ($20) improves NN predictions by 10%, Tesla is better off installing two more cameras instead of using an expensive radar. The ROI argument immediately says that radar is not worth it and extra cameras are a better choice.

Now let's look at the probability argument for 2 cameras and whether a 10% improvement makes sense for $20. If prediction errors are reduced by only 10% with two cameras, maybe accidents would drop from 10,000 to 9,000. That sounds like a lot, but autonomy requires NNs reduce errors by an order of magnitude for 5 iterations. In other words, reducing errors from 10,000 -> 1,000, then 1,000 -> 100, etc until it's .1%. It's clear that 10% doesn't make any difference in getting to autonomy, because the rate of improvement through better NN models and training needs to improve so much more that a one time 10% improvement would not even be noticed compared to the 100,000% improvement through the NN.

I'm not saying my made up numbers are right. However, Tesla does know what the numbers are. Given the priority Tesla has placed on safety, I'm pretty sure that they would not drop radar if it added material improvement relative to what FSD software is achieving.

All the probabilities also needs to be weighted with costs. Decreasing the 1/10M mile fenderbender is worth a lot less than decreasing the 1/100M mile human casuality. And I think Elon is seeing that the error modes of the radar and complexity of adding another sensor to their stack is costing more in human lives than the benefits of avoid a few fender benders. Just by improving the speed of development of FSD they might save lives even if we today have [vision+radar]_0>vision_0 as we might soon have vision_1>>[vision+radar]_1 even if [vision+radar]_inf>vision_inf. Hope that made sense.
 
Looking over the European registration numbers (thanks Rob Stark) and it seems like the Y isn’t really being sent yet. Anyone have insight when to expect volume deliveries there?

Tesla probably wouldn't send any Model Y's to Europe before the Berlin factory starts pumping them out in volume if it weren't for the well-established benefit of "priming the pump" before the real onslaught begins.

In other words, I expect Model Y shipments into Europe from factories on other continents will never amount to much.
 
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VW and Ford have contracts with SK I. Tesla can't use those pouch cells.

I have zero doubt VW will use their allotted 7.5 GWh for ID.4. And later Buzz.

The electric F150 will come at roughly the same time the second SK GF comes on line. 2023-24. I have zero doubt they will use their allotted batteries either. I don't see why they couldn't even switch Mach-e from LG to SK.

All I'm saying is this settlement benefits Tesla even if Tesla doesn't get a single battery from SK's production. Tesla is not the one that will be paying a royalty (or settlement) to LG and now LG will have more money to invest in, you guessed it, even more battery production. More batteries allows Tesla to expand EV and energy production beyond what they could have without more batteries. This settlement adds batteries to the market in more ways than one. It will be at least a decade before there are enough batteries to satisfy all market needs. People who think about this in terms of protecting Tesla's market for batteries (or EV's for that matter) are thinking too small and too conventionally.

You can't stop an idea whose time has come but it can be slowed down by physical constraints. This removes one more brick from the wall that is blocking faster progress.
 
I guess anything about Elon gets you lots of clicks these days:




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This week's flyover:

Not much to note. I would love some sort of a diagram of the entire factory that's relatively up-to-date, so I can focus my flights a little better. Both Gigapresses working and plenty of castings around.

Enjoy


I'm assuming the vehicle staging area was empty? Thanks for posting these. I should probably become a patron.

I guess anything about Elon gets you lots of clicks these days:




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Reminds me of:

 
The only BS thing I heard in there was from JB when he said EVs are getting cheaper.....*clears throat* excuse me, your former employer just increased the cost of their cars....it's 2021 and there is still not a 30k 200+ EV in the market.

JB would be thinking about production cost, not price to customer.

Eventually the latter follows the former, but in the short term it’s possible for costs to fall and prices to rise, aka, make obscene profits.

As economists like to say, the solution to high prices is high prices, as it entices investment in supplying that product to meet the demand, to wit, Austin and Berlin factories.