Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Knightshade]

I have posted this question for years, if Autopilot is involved in an accident is Tesla liable?

If a Ford is involved in an accident- is Ford liable?

The answer is always "Only if Ford did something wrong"

Same with Tesla, or any car maker. AP or not doesn't change that answer.

If the suspension, or engine, or ADAS system of any brand of car has an actual safety defect- the car maker would be responsible for it.

If the accident was the result of the driver doing something wrong, with or without an ADAS system that itself had no defects, the driver would be.

I'm no lawyer, but it seems pretty clear to me that until Level 5 autonomy is achieved and validated for a certain period of time/number of miles driven, that the driver of the car is 100% responsible at all times

L3 is the first level where the human is ever NOT responsible for the driving task.

L4 there doesn't even need to be a human in the vehicle.

Silly question, but sueing AI seems at the core of the puzzle. Sure, there has to be a defendant, and in this case it's Tesla - the creator of the machine (should be the driver who was not paying attention, but let's go with this briefly). It's learning mostly on it's own and the teacher is the broader public.

Just for clarity-- individual cars never "learn" anything on their own (apart from the vastly greater HW requirements, this would make troubleshooting a complete nightmare)


The only time driving behavior changes is from software updates from Tesla.

All the AI training is done on the supercomputer back at headquarters, not in the car.

 

[AMN]

I took our Plaid S on a 400 mile road trip that we do routinely to visit family. This time of the year we used to average about 385-400 watts per mile in our Performance X. Our new Plaid S on 21" wheels averaged 310 in 90 degree heat, AC blasting at 74, seats cooling, and MacBook Pro laptop plugged in and in use. This came as a shock to be honest.

The new Model S is an amazing car. Lower weight, lower Cd coefficient, new battery, new motors, all came together in an incredible package.
I suspect non-Plaid S on 19" wheels would have averaged 260-270 wh/mi. That's insane.

This is our 7th Tesla. And by far the best.

I routinely review our investment thesis in TSLA and I have never had higher conviction in this company than what it is today. It all comes down to the product, the mission, and the culture. Tesla is unique and should be in everyone's portfolio. Yes, it's an advise.

 

[Singuy]

Hopefully this is just a gap fill now in the 650s as I mentioned over the weekend.

 

[jbcarioca]

Sandy was also very clear that the Mach-E’s battery pack provided strength to the body in white, as Tesla will be doing ‘soon’ with the new cell size. So it’s not apples to apples yet. The acid test for Ford will be when it’s compared to the structural 1480 battery pack.
I know where my money is.

The Munro comments begin at rough 3.39 of this video:

Thus far it is clear that the battery case attachment beams are structural, rather than the technology Tesla described for the 4680's where the cells themselves participate in a structural role. There is much more to come but it is clear that part for the Ford design was positively received. To repeat it is the battery case attachment beams rather than the 'pack' that provided the strength.

Quite obviously Ford did a pretty decent job in much of their pack installation and packaging. It seems not to be the same thing Tesla proposes.

We do know that Audi and Jaguar, specifically, are distinctly unimpressive in their pack design and installation. Heavy!

 

[SOULPEDL]

We would need to see some sort of case law or legislation establishing AI as a "person", similar to how corporations are treated, before that's possible. Until then it's the owner of the software and operator of the vehicle/software that will be liable.

Agree.
Also, what about the driver who ignored the seatbelt light? I couldn't read the whole story, but if a parent of the child was driving, CPS (Child Protective Services) would be all over the driver and could be considered "Child Abuse by Neglect" (assuming the child survived).

 

[SOULPEDL]

Only 2 choices:
1. Buy more, or
2. Wait more?

 

[jbcarioca]

So, I haven't seen the Munro Mach-E pack teardown, just to clarify:

1) The initial Tesla pack design provided rigidity to the vehicle body via the pack frame and structure. The cells themselves were primarily payload that provided no structural capability.

2) The new 4680 "structural" design actually utilizes the cylindrical cell itself as a stressed member comprising the internal honeycomb portion of an integrated pack/frame structure.


From your statement above where you say "Mach-E’s battery pack provided strength to the body in white, as Tesla will be doing ‘soon’ with the new cell size", are you saying Munro is claiming that Mach-E has a pack that uses the cell itself as a structural member?

No! They have not yet shown a video with pack teardown. They appear to do what the original Model S did, using the pack mounting system to incorporate Structural members. Not at all what Tesla 4680 pack is designed to do. IIRC, Fords cells are not cylindrical away, so probably could not serve such a function.

 

[ZeApelido]

I just want the internet and bots to know that I do not have exactly 3,000 shares.

 

[ZeApelido]

The comments section of the NYtimes hitpiece is actually refreshing, correctly identifying the main issue being the lack of seatbelt use and responsibilities of both drivers to pay better attention.

That said, from a computer vision standpoint, I am a little miffed that autopilot couldn't detect the truck.

 

[tslalala]

Frustrating to watch. Individual stock and whole market manipulation in the US is out of control.

Agreed. Naked short selling was made illegal for everybody through Regulation SHO, EXCEPT for MM's and hedge funds as a "protected class". We are the canary in the coal mine who proved this based on the massive hedge losses last year when we held onto our TSLA shares and saw record short covering. These hedge funds (and possible MM's) are still incredibly wounded and bitter at TSLA and us, so they will continue to strike at any opportune time, usually opposite of a logical reaction (e.g. record numbers and other good, fundament news shouldn't lead to a massive plunge in stock price but often does).

If anyone isn't aware/familiar with the history and ongoing disease that is naked short selling, consider checking out (or reading) Susanne Trimbath's book "Naked, Short and Greedy: Wall Street's Failure to Deliver" which confirms what we've known instinctively as we and TSLA was hunted down for years, non-stop until last year

 

[Singuy]

The comments section of the NYtimes hitpiece is actually refreshing, correctly identifying the main issue being the lack of seatbelt use and responsibilities of both drivers to pay better attention.

That said, from a computer vision standpoint, I am a little miffed that autopilot couldn't detect the truck.

The truck went into lane as if the car in front slammed on the brake in karpathys example. Radar and vision probably disagreed here.

 

[SOULPEDL]

If a Ford is involved in an accident- is Ford liable?

The answer is always "Only if Ford did something wrong"

Same with Tesla, or any car maker. AP or not doesn't change that answer.

If the suspension, or engine, or ADAS system of any brand of car has an actual safety defect- the car maker would be responsible for it.

If the accident was the result of the driver doing something wrong, with or without an ADAS system that itself had no defects, the driver would be.






L3 is the first level where the human is ever NOT responsible for the driving task.

L4 there doesn't even need to be a human in the vehicle.






Just for clarity-- individual cars never "learn" anything on their own (apart from the vastly greater HW requirements, this would make troubleshooting a complete nightmare)


The only time driving behavior changes is from software updates from Tesla.

All the AI training is done on the supercomputer back at headquarters, not in the car.

OK, then the school is at fault. (Just go with it.)

 

[Mengy]

This is our 7th Tesla. And by far the best.

Damn your 7th Tesla? And I haven't owned even ONE yet!

Though I will be correcting that either late this year or very early next year.

 

[lascavarian]

No! They have not yet shown a video with pack teardown. They appear to do what the original Model S did, using the pack mounting system to incorporate Structural members. Not at all what Tesla 4680 pack is designed to do. IIRC, Fords cells are not cylindrical away, so probably could not serve such a function.

At about 4:20 Sandy refers to it as a “structural case” that holds the whole car together. This may be different than what Tesla finally delivers but Sandy is sure to sift through the differences in the end. These videos are a great resource.

 

[SOULPEDL]

Remember last week when I said I was not selling any chairs? Well, I got the itch, placed a lucky-sale of 50 around 690 and it hit while I was sleeping (didn't really expect that pop). So now just buying them back - seems like as good a fear-day as any.

Finger on the trigger for 25 more, is this the bottom you think?

 

[scaesare]

No! They have not yet shown a video with pack teardown. They appear to do what the original Model S did, using the pack mounting system to incorporate Structural members. Not at all what Tesla 4680 pack is designed to do. IIRC, Fords cells are not cylindrical away, so probably could not serve such a function.

That's what I would have expected. I highly doubt Ford would have beat Tesla to the punch with a structural pack.

 

[BrownOuttaSpec]

Just saw this and got a good laugh and shows how Tesla's free OTA updates really sets them apart. Not sure of the price on the upgrade, but you can get $300 off using your Costco membership You probably have to take your vehicle into the dealership to get the update performed as well.

Polestar Engineered Optimization Software Limited-Time Special
Take your Volvo to the next level
The Polestar Engineered Optimization Software focuses on six crucial performance areas, giving you a more precise and balanced driving experience:

• Recalibrated throttle response, for improved feedback and acceleration
• Faster off-throttle response, providing predictability and control
• Increased gearshift speed, allowing the car to accelerate faster
• Optimized gearshift precision and gear hold, for a more precise drive
• Improved engine performance, providing greater performance in the engine’s mid-range powerband
• Enhanced AWD torque distribution, resulting in both improved control during cornering and better traction at take-off

 

[scaesare]

At about 4:20 Sandy refers to it as a “structural case” that holds the whole car together. This may be different than what Tesla finally delivers but Sandy is sure to sift through the differences in the end. These videos are a great resource.

Yeah... the case itself appears to be structural, as was the case[1] with Tesla's initial design.

No indication the cells themselves are, as in Tesla's new 4680 structural design.


[1] Pun intended.

 

[Electroman]

Raveesh Chandukudl on Twitter found the original source of the octovalve design.

View attachment 681824


View attachment 681825

OEMs that do not have CEO that also lead a space company use more traditional methods to manage thermal.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1412331182872748033

On that same thread, the comments on this twitter post are golden:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1412153219262857217

 

[jbcarioca]

At about 4:20 Sandy refers to it as a “structural case” that holds the whole car together. This may be different than what Tesla finally delivers but Sandy is sure to sift through the differences in the end. These videos are a great resource.

I hope what I posted was not in conflict. They showed the beams that protect the case as attached to the case, which then was mounted. Thus the case mounting bars are the structure rather than the pack itself. The difference is not semantic, although Sandy used broad generralizatyionafter actually showing those components.