I hope I'm misunderstanding something about this because it sounds like Elon thinks he's teaching someone a lesson. If he thinks that, I suddenly have a big concern about his judgement.
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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable
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StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Unless ones reservation puts them in line for one of the first one or two thousand or so Cybertrucks delivered to retail buyers, the actual delivery date of a reservation has much more to do with the speed of the ramp than the date of the initial deliveries.
I was saying I was confident that low volume production will begin sooner than expected because Elon has mostly limited himself to estimating volume production, not initial deliveries. Both dates are important to me because initial deliveries will allow us to confirm a lot of details about the production version of the Cybertruck while high-volume production is what will bring my Cybertruck to me the most quickly.
High volume Cybertruck production will probably coincide with high volume production of 4680 cells while low volume production will coincide with getting enough of the manufacturing kinks worked out and the design and construction details nailed down. Since the Cybertruck team has had additional time I think the uncertainty is now more with the cell production than the truck. Crossing my fingers on both because ramping production of such an innovative truck has plenty of potential snags.
I respect what Bernie has been pushing for, helping the poor, asking for fair chances, universal healthcare, etc. However, I don’t like he has been picking on Musk on every occasion he had. Elon just replied the way Elon does, but I don’t think that might help Elon win the left to buy more Tesla :X
I don’t know what TSLA has to win from these open « you’re still alive? » comments. Hope this make the stock drop more Monday morning for cheaper TSLA. However these stock selling polls and fights must be irritating for a lot of long investors.
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I was sitting on my hands rather than responding to this, until I read downthread as far as it took to notice someone chiming in, so -
this one doesn't pass the nonsense test. My grad-school uncle, in Berlin from 1929 though 1933, remained giddy the rest of his life on relating how, out of sheer brazenness and in the face of the impossibility his cohorts claimed it to be, he invited the great Professor to speak to his kaffeeklatsch...and he accepted! Einstein was certainly high atop his well-deserved pedestal then.
I agree. As brilliant as Elon is, juvenile tweets do him no favors. Bernie's tweet didn't seem targeted at Elon specifically. Elon's response was in poor taste. I hope he deletes it.
Feel free to send me the difference on mine and I will add a trailer hitch and change my seat color then we can both feel goodSo the price will go up from when you ordered it. I get that.
If'n when my Model X Plaid becomes available, I'm thinking of asking them what the latest price at the time they contact me is and offering to pay that instead of what it was back when I ordered it. Just because Tesla and TSLA has been very good to me and it's just the right thing to do, and IMHO many on this thread could easily, and might want to do the same thing too.
Musk has a small number of weaknesses, one of them is not realising that the US works by lobbying and the optimum thing to do is to cultivate politicians on both sides.
Doesn’t matter what politicians say but what they do. For example on a state level because of dealers influence Tesla can’t sell freely.
So far the product is to good but one day this oversight may hurt Tesla a lot more if adversaries use their political influence to actively thwart Tesla.
Doesn’t matter what politicians say but what they do. For example on a state level because of dealers influence Tesla can’t sell freely.
So far the product is to good but one day this oversight may hurt Tesla a lot more if adversaries use their political influence to actively thwart Tesla.
I totally agree with you, and yes I am about BTFDips.Because nobody else has the elephant.
Because people are shortsighted, selfish, stupid creatures.
Because people love being lied to when it boosts their sense of self worth.
Because people think you make money by hoarding it.
Don’t be annoyed, be grateful you aren’t one of ‘them’. Step back, look at the SP. Dude, 1T market cap and Tesla has barely scratched the surface. Buy with impunity and watch your capital flourish like a sunflower doused in Miracle Grow.
What you put out is returned to you x10, x100. Elon is going for God status and he doesn’t even know it, he’s just trying to do the right thing - always. Be like Elon.
It’s just frustrating bc I don’t think he will be able to change the establishment cult, if that’s his objective and/or goal. The unrealized gain tax targeted to billionaires is already out - bc of course many of the rich filthy billionaires deploy lobbyists to control the bills and politicians.
After all he’s involved in on his day to day and long term goals, I feel he’s already proven his point and not sure why he would need to continue poking the fake corrupt Bernie Sanders (who owns more properties than an average American union factory worker) politicians of the world.
Also, how is this helping him get to Mars faster?
insaneoctane
Well-Known Member
It's the weekend, so maybe the mods will indulge me...
Elon's tax payments mean nothing to the insatiable US government. According to this source, the US spent $40B on Nov 10, 2021, a typical day from the looks of the data. That's $1.7B per hour. Even as the richest man on earth, his taxes just can't matter on that ridiculous scale.
No, this is about public perception and Elon willing to do his "fair share". He must feel confident that the future holds significant future gains that will enable him to fund his intra planetary travel goals, even while he pisses away billions to the US government to waste.
Elon's tax payments mean nothing to the insatiable US government. According to this source, the US spent $40B on Nov 10, 2021, a typical day from the looks of the data. That's $1.7B per hour. Even as the richest man on earth, his taxes just can't matter on that ridiculous scale.
No, this is about public perception and Elon willing to do his "fair share". He must feel confident that the future holds significant future gains that will enable him to fund his intra planetary travel goals, even while he pisses away billions to the US government to waste.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
The ironic thing about Bernie being critical of Elon Musk for the amount of tax he pays:
Bernie should blame the people who made the tax law (Congress) not the citizens following the laws they created (Elon Musk).
Last I checked, Bernie was in the first group, that's the group that determined how much tax Elon owes at any point in time.
This is the kind of stuff that has no positive effect and reinforces the negative narrative. Although some may see it as irrelevant these comments put off some buyers as it feeds to the other negative narratives. My neighbors refuse to look at Tesla because of some of this noise and he could easily dispel it rather than feed it. This type of messaging does trickle down to middle management attitudes and to customer treatment. Corporate culture comes from the top and there are better ways to message and he has used them before. Nothing like pissing off a huge buying group that is environmentally focused and offending large groups of people and politicians. Find a better way to make a point. Now AARP is going to get involved
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Elon isn't done selling shares yet to pay his tax bill, so he'll be selling more shares this week anyway, regardless of anything Bernie (or anyone else) says. I think Elon is just using Bernie's obnoxious tweets to make a point.
feigen66
Member
Living in Bay Area I found people likes to be pissed with semi-little things. Your neighbors might not be buying Tesla anyway and prefer to give money to GM and Ford because Elon is super-villan.This is the kind of stuff that has no positive effect and reinforces the negative narrative. Although some may see it as irrelevant these comments put off some buyers as it feeds to the other negative narratives. My neighbors refuse to look at Tesla because of some of this noise and he could easily dispel it rather than feed it. This type of messaging does trickle down to middle management attitudes and to customer treatment. Corporate culture comes from the top and there are better ways to message and he has used them before. Nothing like pissing off a huge buying group that is environmentally focused and offending large groups of people and politicians. Find a better way to make a point. Now AARP is going to get involved
I write this not to refute this talking point, nor to warn others how dangerous it is to use it without adding on all the a*teri*k* incumbent to a full-fledged discussion of same (for example: in that an individual can deduct from his Fed tax burden a lot of what he pays to his state's tax authority, meaning a high tax state like VT of necessity will lower the Fed take), BUT to counsel all to get your numbers right or eventually you'll find yourself losing an argument that might otherwise be valid. You can bet your Brooklyn Bridge across Lake Champlain that Bernie Sanders knows the right numbers.
Here are the data from 2017...and the likelihood of VT's having dropped by one-third since then are......low.
According to the Rockefeller Institute, Vermonters paid $9.048 billion to D.C.
Are Taxpayers in Your State Giving More Money to the Feds than They Get Back?
Our visualization shows how much money the federal government collects and allocates back to projects in each state, revealing who is shouldering more of their fair share of the tax burden, and who is taking a free ride.
howmuch.net
I often disagree with Elon being so outspoken, but it's easy for me because I'm not constantly someone's target.
If I were working 100 hrs a week and created the only real US competition to EV companies in China, reduced space flight cost by several factors for NASA, provided broadband to all of rural America, and was one of the greatest fighters against climate change, I'd expect to be somewhat appreciated by our wonderful government, if not made a national hero.
Instead, he's constantly snubbed by them and often vilified. Although it's impossible for anyone to do what he did without building successful companies, he's effectively being scapegoated for every EV that Tesla makes and every successful SpaceX flight because each one increases the value of his companies.
I don't care how much money someone makes. Everyone wants to be appreciated when they work their butt off to do good, much less being demonized for it. It's disheartening and I can see how it gets under his skin.
I don't believe Elon is saying stuff like this because there's strategic value to Tesla. Elon may be superhuman, but he's still human.
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StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
It sounds like you are making the demand argument. That demand will run out because Tesla is viewed as being too upmarket.
That's nonsense. Demand is a function primarily of how much value is offered. Tesla understands this which is why they have been hard at work to bring down the cost of production so they, and only they, have ultimate pricing power. The rest can't keep up. None of this speaks against raising prices during periods of strong demand to increase margins. Because Tesla has the power to lower prices as needed while still making an enviable profit.
Gigapress
Trying to be less wrong
Based on his past comments and actions, I believe he's well aware this is how it works but doesn't want to play the game that way on principle.
Thumper
Active Member
Twitter is not just unsuitable for intelligent discussion of complex issues like tax policy, it is counterproductive and engourages cheap shots, ill-conceived one-liners and foments anger where thought is required.
Hmmm, I don’t buy this. Sure, people resent things, lots of things, and they have all sorts of media and tweets and yada yada yada to remind them to resent things because their memory is so short.
Yet, that doesn’t stop people from striving to buy goods that they see as imparting status. Expensive goods, such as men’s watches, often have very little actual difference between them, yet people pay extra in order to conspicuously consume at all levels of the economic spectrum (so much the better that Tesla’s cars are objectively superior products).
Even though many people already think of Tesla cars as luxury goods and, yes, some eschew them as vehicles for show offs, people are lining up to buy them.
Tesla is doing the right things by selling higher margin vehicles and raising prices to prevent lead times from becoming totally unreasonable.
They are also helping other BEV manufacturers that can satisfy some of the demand Tesla is creating, especially for those who can satisfy at lower price points. This, too, helps accelerate the transition to BEV’s.
When conditions allow and are such that it makes sense to make less expensive models, Tesla will do so.
Recall that prior to the introduction of the Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Daimler was doing fine despite the resentment of some. The introduction of the C-Class was a controversial decision and not a "no brainer." It turned out that the car has been a success—again despite, or maybe because, of the resentment of the Mercedes-have-nots.
Tesla, too, will have great success with the next model down from the 3/Y when they get around to introducing it.
tl;dr: Often a human’s resentment seems to disappear when they can buy the goods that caused them to resent. Naked apes usually don’t work as we might expect or hope they do.
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