Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Lessmog]

Exactly. Pensions that people will see evaporating before their eyes because Elon thinks he’s proving a point. You think the people affected by this will view TSLA/Tesla in a good light?

Sorry to sound so harsh, BUT -- if people are happy to bay with the mob, they can have what they are getting.
Hate begets hate. Fact.

 

[generalenthu]

For a second I was thinking that Tesla employees must be appreciating the fact that they can buy in at the lowest price of the quarter (Not sure how true that is, but it was in a video upthread) and then looked up to see the that lowest price this quarter was ~775.

 

[elasalle]

It's no use crying over spilled milk ( or sold EM shares)

Time to accept the realities and adjust.
Closed a couple of positions (Verticals) .. with like 30-40% overall losses.
Closed Jan 23 450's after one year, and opened new Jan 24 1000K positions instead.

1-2 more weeks of suffering is how I see this playing out .... cheers!!

 

[replicant]

Elon is trying to educate a few more Democrats besides Bernie, so that hopefully the whole idea about taxing unrealized gains never comes up again. It seems that some of them aren't capable of understanding basic economics without a demonstration.

The woke mob going after him don’t own TSLA and don’t care if it drops. They probably want it to keep dropping to reduce Elon’s net worth.

That's funny, I've owned thousands of TSLA shares for many years, and I support Bernie... Here's what I believe for now:

1. Elon is using his role as CEO to defend a personal opinion about taxes, and probably to defend his own financial interest
2. Bernie is proposing taxing unrealized gains because
   1. technological disruptions favor winners-take-all/most
   2. founders of these startups hold a significant % of the companies, which quickly become giants
   3. they don't need to sell because they just borrow against their shares thanks to extremely low interest rates
   4. they're quite young (at least compared to the previous generations of ultra rich) so inheritance tax is pretty far in the future
   5. so new wealth is simply not taxed while they hodl
   6. Bernie would have preferred that a large % of the companies' capital was held directly by employees (he's always been pro coop)
   7. but that's not the case, so taxing unrealized gains is the most efficient way to
      1. focus the debate on the ever growing % wealth owned by the ever reducing number of capitalists
      2. forcing the rich to propose alternative ways to reduce inequality without relying only on private initiatives (Elon's proposal is a joke, so far, and he only react with straw man arguments, ad hominem or red herrings)
      3. maybe making people realize that taxing billionaires progressively (even at high rate) does not actually affect growth and innovation, especially in a country like the US (who would claim that Elon led Tesla for money?)

I could go on but that would be quickly deemed off topic (although it's never OT when it's Elon...). It's just that there are so many posts here that pretend that only woke, non-owners, TSLAQ, FUDists (etc) could oppose Elon on this topic...

 

[StarFoxisDown!]

It's no use crying over spilled milk ( or sold EM shares)

Time to accept the realities and adjust.
Closed a couple of positions (Verticals) .. with like 30-40% overall losses.
Closed Jan 23 450's after one year, and opened new Jan 24 1000K positions instead.

1-2 more weeks of suffering is how I see this playing out .... cheers!!

Given the volume so far today verses Friday, Elon could have sold about 3-4 million shares today. I could see (through the filings) that Elon is at least to 75% of the planned amount of shares (17 million) by the end of this week. At which point I think the stock starts to rebound.

 

[Krugerrand]

My only issue with how this has gone down is that it's enriched the exact Wall St people that Elon hates. By Elon doing it how he has, he made the stock an easy target and once again, Wall St makes money driving the share price down and then gets shares at a discounted rate.

By doing the slow bleed daily, he continues to give them easy access to cheap stock. Just get it over with already and stop "threatening" to sell even more shares....you're just hurting your shareholders at this point.

How exactly are you being hurt as a shareholder? Exactly. Be specific. Because I’m a shareholder with a whole lot more shares than you, and I’m not being hurt. I’m being endlessly entertained, though. Or maybe I’m unaware I’m being beaten over the head, so explain how I’m being hurt, please and thanks.

As a shareholder do you not have the same opportunity as Wallstreet to get cheap shares? Even the likes of @Unpilot knows to buy and we all know he’s not the brightest light on the Christmas tree.

Waiting with bated breath…but holding out no hope for a logical answer since I’m still waiting for the answer from previous ‘shareholders are being hurt’ complaints about how funding secured hurt me as a shareholder.

 

[Singuy]

But what point is he going to prove? The woke mob going after him don’t own TSLA and don’t care if it drops. They probably want it to keep dropping to reduce Elon’s net worth. So in the end, I don’t think this will accomplish anything other than to hurt the people who actually believe in and support Tesla. While most of us here can HODL for many more years, I know some people who love the company but need to sell some shares short term. This turmoil is unrelated to Tesla (the business) and isn’t something they could have seen coming. It really sucks….

Well Elon got as many shareholders permission as he can using twitter. The assumption is many shareholders are fan of Elon and follow Twitter as material information are tweeted out from time to time. Only about 5% of his followers voted which was surprising to me.

Anyways the narrative is that he is the richest tax dodger in the world. The point he is making that he doesn't care about paying taxes. He sold all of assets before before people criticized his assets. Now he is willing to do the same to pay taxes.

 

[Krugerrand]

Couple more days and the good from Q3 results and Hertz will be completely nullified.

No they won’t. Nobody can change the historical facts of Q3 or that Hertz made a smart business decision.

Some of you need to go for a long walk some place that doesn’t have Internet.

 

[Sunvalleylaw]

There are lots of great YouTubers who talk about the fundamentals. Tesla Daily and SolvingTheMoneyProblem are very good or if you are feeling very bullish Warren Redlich. But basically read everything you can get your hands or eyes on, and do the calculations yourself.

All outcomes are possible. At the two extremes
1. The competition catches up with Tesla or puts pricing pressure on their cars, and Tesla struggles to scale up energy or release robo-taxis. Tesla ramps up cars well to become no.1 car manufacturer by end of the decade selling roughly similar to Toyota now. In this scenario Tesla will do well to match the S&P 500 over the next 10 years
2. Tesla gets to 20m sales annually by 2030 with at least 25% margin accounting for 1 in 4 new cars, ramps up energy and own batteries, semis and solar roofs, and robotaxis go live by 2025. If this happens TSLA will probably 30x again from here!

I was an Econ major in the 80‘s, and used to know more about this stuff. Due to discussions with entrepreneurial friends. But had no money to act on it, and forgot most of it. Then lived live as a self employed lawyer in a small town, paying the bills but with not a lot left over (our real estate has done well though), and invested only via funds that I would put money into and forget, unless we needed to pull some out for cash for something really necessary. So, will be interesting to study this all again, and get moving forward with a little portfolio with a 10-15 year plan. Thanks for the tips. I guess a lot of folks here on the thread would call me “woke”, though I don‘t love the labels people throw around at others (either coming from folks like Bernie or Elon, or amongst us) as I believe most of us want the same things. A good world for our families and kids, security for our own family, etc. And I do believe the market and free industry and innovation has a critical role in getting it done. And obviously, after looking around at the options, I voted with my dollars by ordering my MYLR, as it fits best for me living out here in Idaho, and driving where I need to locally and on road trips, and how the car works in light of how I use cars. Just is the best option. Only improvement I might be looking at is the suspension, and there may be changes coming along there. So here is a Dem voting with his dollars despite the noise.

And beyond the car, I have about a 23 year old house which will need a roof and gas forced air furnace replaced soon. And because the house was built in a time where AC was not needed, it does not have it. So, some combination of high efficiency heat pumps, splits, water heaters, etc. All stuff I can hopefully power mostly in the beginning, and over time fully if we design well, incorporating Tesla home products. They seem out ahead there too. And I my instinct says we are nearing the steep part of the J curve on some of that if Elon and the company keeps their eyes on the ball and keeps moving forward. A much more dispersed electrical network will be at hand sometime soon. And this is coming from a guy living in a state where there are NO state incentives for EV’s and where Idaho Power seems to be making it as hard as possible for people to have solar pencil for them. But I believe that will pass, or that people will so choose anyway if they can. That is the emotional instinct stuff that causes me to believe.

Now, will keep learning more about the fundamentals and how to read those numbers so I make good decisions. Seeing as I am fortunate enough to have some money I can feel good about putting in individual stocks with a long term strategy where I don‘t touch it unless I absolutely have to. But not rich enough to want to be some day trader/timing the market guy casino style.

Hoping for the best for Tesla and all of us here, with a long range view.

EDIT: OK, NOW I am going to try to stay out of the tax policy/Elon vs. Bernie thing. I am interested in tax policy though, and there are some interesting posts to consider. So I get tempted. Anyway, cheers!

 

[StarFoxisDown!]

How exactly are you being hurt as a shareholder? Exactly. Be specific. Because I’m a shareholder with a whole lot more shares than you, and I’m not being hurt. I’m being endlessly entertained, though. Or maybe I’m unaware I’m being beaten over the head, so explain how I’m being hurt, please and thanks.

As a shareholder do you not have the same opportunity as Wallstreet to get cheap shares? Even the likes of @Unpilot knows to buy and we all know he’s not the brightest light on the Christmas tree.

Waiting with bated breath…but holding out no hope for a logical answer since I’m still waiting for the answer from previous ‘shareholders are being hurt’ complaints about how funding secured hurt me as a shareholder.

Maybe read the post I wrote right after that?

Not every investor is in the same position and has the financial ability to just wait out volatility that the CEO himself created

Just because you're in a great position financially doesn't mean others are and I quite frankly get annoyed at that attitude.

 

[henchman24]

Tesla is back to trading below the prices the Wall Street has deemed Tesla is worth for the last ~4 months. The selling pressure will continue until Elon is done, but right now, there is 'easy' upside to be had.

 

[Sunvalleylaw]

Refers to deleted post.

This too.

 

[goinfraftw]

Tbh - This all seems like a pretty interesting experiment being run to see what people care about more in Capitalist societies: making money for their own needs (now and future) or solving societal problems that'll affect them individually too (now and future).

 

[StarFoxisDown!]

Tesla is back to trading below the prices the Wall Street has deemed Tesla is worth for the last ~4 months. The selling pressure will continue until Elon is done, but right now, there is 'easy' upside to be had.

Even though options/LEAPS aren't exactly screaming deals like 3-4 months ago, I'm still finding some tempting LEAPS at higher strike prices. Seems way too easy as this point of what is going to happen when Elon's selling is done and we get those Q4 P/D numbers.

 

[Drumheller]

I'm hoping he tweets something along the lines of: "Stopped selling my shares because the stock price drop it caused was harming the mom&pop investors." Maybe then idiots like Bernie can put 2+2 together.

That's not what he said. Elon is trying to prove a point, that Bernie's theories on taxation are more hurtful than they are helpful. Unfortunately, we are the guinea pigs until the point's been made.

If that is his goal, he's wasting his time. Bernie and his supporters won't be satisfied unless Elon gives away 99% of his net worth and, even then, they'll still hate him. They hate all billionaires, because they believe no one can get to that level without being evil and taking advantage of others. Most of these people do not understand the difference between income and assets. They imagine Elon is sitting on a bank accounts with billions and doing nothing with that cash while illegally avoiding owed taxes and refusing to help others. Doubt what I'm saying? Spend some time on Reddit and Twitter.

Politicians take advantage of this ignorance to push their agendas. Politicians are the worst of humanity.

 

[SOULPEDL]

Pair of 2's... Hmm, then looks at the pot.
OK, I'm in. I'll take 3 cards and raise you this much.

 

[Rarity]

Refers to deleted post

No, I am not talking about them. But I agree, to generalize, any mob needs allies in order to get anything done.

The mob is not being targeted here for persuasion. Rather, the potential allies are the ones being targeted for persuasion.

 

[Paracelsus]

...................The woke mob is loud, but small. In order to get anything done, the mob needs allies.

Nice post @Rarity - it seems almost everything comes back around if you wait long enough. In the 80's a slogan was invented to denounce the hypocrisy of the Moral Majority/Jerry Falwell fan base. And a generation later it seems just as fitting to apply it to the loud, but small Woke Mob.

 

[Krugerrand]

Before I get a lot of responses, please I'm in no way saying I'm selling or even remotely thinking of selling. In fact I'm looking at LEAPS with this continued drop.

BUT (and I've had this conversation here before and gotten a lot of disagreements), while I don't feel a CEO should go out of their way to pump a stock, a CEO also shouldn't be doing things to harm shareholders. And every shareholder is in different positions/situations in life which don't allow them to have the freedom I have to just hold until whenever I want.

Case in point, a friend is reaching out to me asking what I think the stock movement is going to be near-term because they need cash for a down payment. They've been a shareholder for many years, never sold a single share. This 25% drop for them means they have liquidate a lot more shares than they wanted. Yes every investor needs to ok with the money they have in a stock dropping at any time.....but they shouldn't afraid that their CEO will do actions that harm shareholders just to make a point.

I don't want to start a back n forth, so I'll just say I respect other opinions, this is just my own. I'm fortunate enough to ride with ups and downs and have no need for this money, but others aren't in that situation.

NOT Elon’s problem or responsibility if and when certain shareholders need to sell.

A shareholder has responsibilities to:

Understand that which they’ve invested in; including but not restricted to the people running the show.
Understand the dynamics of the stock market and the people which are running that show.
Make decisions in their best interest - which includes but isn’t specific to managing their invested finances appropriately and based on what they know about the first two points I made.
Stop blaming other people for the situations they find themselves in that are not to their liking.

Your friend shouldn’t be asking you anything. If he needed to sell for a down payment he had PLENTY of opportunity to sell on the run up from $700 to $1200+. What exactly was he waiting for? Maybe he needs to also change the narrative in his head and thank his lucky stars Elon and Tesla killed themselves making Q3 such a success causing your friend not to have to sell shares at $550 for his down payment. If he sells today he has cut down the shares needed to sell by 40%ish. What’s so awful about that?

 

[DarkandStormy]

That's not what he said. Elon is trying to prove a point, that Bernie's theories on taxation are more hurtful than they are helpful. Unfortunately, we are the guinea pigs until the point's been made.

Elon said the stock price was "too high" and he "wasn't kidding" when the price was ~$780, pre-split.

Many are theorizing this is to pay his tax bill when he exercises his options on nearly 23m shares (which expire next August). Other are theorizing this is to get cash to buy SpaceX stock/options. Who knows.

The least likely reason, to me, is that Elon wants to "prove a point" about a hypothetical wealth tax that doesn't appear to have any likelihood of passing in the next 3-4 years (at the very least).