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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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FYI, chart from ARK research. Using their own metric of EV performance, shows that EV competitors have mostly (but not all) gotten better than the original 2013 Model S, and are equivalent to the 2018 Model 3, but lag far behind the 2021 Models.

They predict that Tesla's lead will only increase by 2026. All this isn't news to us who have been following the performance details of various EVs, but nice to see it summarized on a chart:

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Those projections are quite bullish, in 2026 the industry median will still be behind Tesla by 23 (out of 50) index points. While I don't know how the index is calculated, it matches with my perceptions of the EV's I see hitting the market. The fact that the rest of the industry will eventually catch up to where Tesla is today is not what knocks Tesla out of their dominant position as long as Tesla continues to innovate faster. And how could a bigger, less efficient bureaucracy, with much higher costs, ever start innovating faster than a more nimble, modern company with better access to the best talent? Tesla has lower debt loads, no anchor of ICE production and sales, are vertically integrated without dealerships, flatter, more efficient management structure, software and data expertise, no advertising expenses, I could go on and on. Legacy auto and other startups have precious few things that could be considered an advantage, looking forward.

This means that not only can Tesla design and build better cars, the rest of the industry has a higher cost to produce relative to Tesla and that gap is not narrowing but growing wider. This is the most important metric that determines competitiveness in the high-volume markets. If you can't produce high quality cars for less, you can't offer the consumer the most value. Not only do volumes suffer, but also profit margins and the combination of these two things re-enforce one another which leads to a cascading effect. This is why I see Tesla growing into a dominant powerhouse in the auto markets.

One wildcard in how dominant Tesla will be in the auto market is at what point of EV adoption does the adoption curve start to flatten. Because I believe in the theory that EV's are an inherently a better ownership/user experience, with lower costs, and that will lead to it being increasingly difficult to sell ICE vehicles in any significant volume. This means I think the EV market share growth will not flatten much until over 80%-90% of ICE vehicle sales are displaced. Even then, EV's will continue to gain market share, just at a slower pace. Inability to source raw materials quickly enough will probably flatten the curve a little throughout, but that bodes well for superior profit margins (at the expense of slower unit growth).

The automotive market has had many decades in which the biggest players were on roughly equal footings in terms of costs to produce. Yes, you can take issue with that statement but I'm speaking in very broad, general terms compared to the dynamics we see in the very early stages of setting up. Volume begets efficiencies and lack of volume makes it increasingly difficult to compete. Tesla is already more efficient at making cars than legacy auto, Tesla was forced into being more efficient than legacy auto so they could compete with cheaper ICE cars while using EV's that inherently cost more to make, especially when volumes were so much lower. The efficiency that was forced upon them simply to survive is Tesla's superpower. Tesla doesn't have enough quarters of profit growth to prove just how efficient they are, but the trend is clear, and it becomes clearer if you understand Tesla's other inherent advantages (which are numerous and durable). This sort of dominant dynamic has not existed since the early days of automaking, and the difference is stark.

All that said, it's obvious this is still not understood by the market. I attribute that to people ascribing too much value to legacy autos long experience in automaking, even as that legacy experience is working against them as we make the transition to EV's. And remember what I've said about the best profits in the market coming from identifying the largest disparities between perception and reality and acting upon them? This is one of those times. Buy and hold until common perceptions align with the reality on the ground. My intuition tells me this is going to be bigger than many bulls expect, and that it will continually keep getting better, constantly surprising the people who dismissed Tesla as not knowing what they were doing or who they were up against. The corner has already been turned and the momentum is palatable. Sure, there will bumps along the way, but the overall growth will be massive and as close to unstoppable as you will ever find.
 
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Anyone else really like the new V4 charging cable technology? The two current carrying wires are in a water bath, and the water is returned back in separate water pipes. So cool...

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Observation based only on the goat-f*** that could happen if the coolant is like the blue non-conductive coolant used in the Hyundai Kona EV (and all other Hyundai EV products): based on chatter on the Hyundai forums, whenever the blue non-conductive coolant is serviced for any reason, a certain percentage of vehicle owners run into an issue where the coolant crystallizes a few months afterwards. YMMV.
 
Re charging speeds, has anyone done charging speed tests on 4680 batteries, lab or vehicle, real or calculated? Not that CT could take 1MW, but there must be some advantage in the offering otherwise why mention it like "Should we tell them?" (Maybe already discussed, I skipped pages),

The 500-mile Cybertruck will have a massive battery which means it will be able to take more current than current Superchargers can supply. Higher charging voltages make it easier to supply that current. Cybertruck doesn't have to accept an entire MW to benefit from 1000V.

Even though I am a huge fan of the Cybertruck, and have more than one on order, my one reservation was that it's large battery and lower efficiency means less added range per minute of Supercharging. This is what I like most about our Model 3's. They can have very short Supercharger stops, even while driving at 75 mph. The fact that Cybertruck can use the higher power V.4 chargers takes care of that concern (assuming V4 chargers become numerous enough).
 
Elon quite specifically mentioned that all the invitees AT the event last night in SPARKS, NEVADA got a tour of THE SEMI PRODUCTION LINE.

Now knock it off with your made up crap.
His sticking point is the "at scale" portion. What is "at scale"? We know the plan is for ~50k in 2024.

How many can they make per week on the Sparks production line? (We might find out during the Q4 conference call.)
 
The problem is, this looks like a "soft launch." Closer to building prototypes than actually entering production.

I think it is a soft launch. The most impactful products through history almost all had a soft launch, including the handmade Model T. It's like Elon said last night, they will continue to iterate, develop and improve it. But it's currently ready to deploy on regular routes as the charging network builds out. A hard launch would have required fully built-out charging infrastucture. This could be likened to something in-between the original Roadster and the Model S, before there was a fast-charging network of any note.

This is how large unstoppable businesses are built. I don't understand your concern.
 
You can’t fit 40,000 pounds of chips in a trailer. You run out of space long before max weight.

Now Soda, that will hit max weight. But Reuters was referring specifically to chips
Are you serious?
Wherever it is we can at least agree that Tesla does not yet have a production facility to produce semi at scale
No we can't, attendees at the event were apparently able to tour the production line, we have no idea what they saw, but do you think Tesla would do that if it were some kind of hand-assembly thing?
 
I was talking to my dad, who's a retired manufacturing plant controller, about Tesla today (as with most days over the past few years...). He was really worried about the drop down in the price of the cars this quarter. He mentioned the simplest answer in manufacturing being that Tesla is increasing demand for their vehicles by lowering the prices.

My reply was the Tesla can't be demand constrained at this stage due to the tremendous amount of growth in production across current factories and proposed new factories yet to be determined. Though, it raised a red flag in confirmation bias on my side. After looking back on the past few quarters of ASP...its been decreasing due to the relative ramp up of the Model 3 / Y lines. There's no doubt things are great and they're generating just a massive amount of top-line automotive revenue with significant profit margins.

So, the question arises to the people here, why is Tesla decreasing prices of their vehicles?
 
From my newsfeed:
A spokeswoman for the food and beverage company said its Frito-Lay unit would take delivery of 15 trucks and have them in place at a Modesto, Calif. plant by the end of the year.

However, this doesn’t match the number in the headline 🥴

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My parsing of this is that they got 5 semis now and will get 10 more before year-end
 
So, the question arises to the people here, why is Tesla decreasing prices of their vehicles?
When GM sees a temporary dip in demand they push more cars to dealers, smothing things out. Tesla does not have that option. A slight dip in sales late in quarter (when it's too late to ship somewhere else) has to be smoothed out another way. Not the first time they have offered incentives.

I am aways warry of bias myself but fortunately if you zoom out the trend is still very much higher prices. As far as why we had a small dip this month...economic fears, Elon drama, IRA credit in January, take your pick.
 
When GM sees a temporary dip in demand they push more cars to dealers, smothing things out. Tesla does not have that option. A slight dip in sales late in quarter (when it's too late to ship somewhere else) has to be smoothed out another way. Not the first time they have offered incentives.

I am aways warry of bias myself but fortunately if you zoom out the trend is still very much higher prices. As far as why we had a small dip this month...economic fears, Elon drama, IRA credit in January, take your pick.

Ok, I hear you in regards to GM...though Tesla isn't seeing a temporary dip in demand (especially in China and Europe which just started getting non-naval delivery), unless its due to the US tax credit coming into effect on 1/1/2023 or long wait times and cancellations are occurring. There's plenty of market to capture with significant demand tailwinds behind their backs now compared to any year in the past as a public company.
 
So, the question arises to the people here, why is Tesla decreasing prices of their vehicles?
But they haven't decreased the price. They have provided a limited time discount to help sell vehicles that people were delaying the purchase of because they expected to get the tax credit next year if they waited.
 
The 500-mile Cybertruck will have a massive battery which means it will be able to take more current [power] than current Superchargers can supply. Higher charging voltages make it easier to supply that current [power]. Cybertruck doesn't have to accept an entire MW to benefit from 1000V.


Can anobody but @Tony73 comment on possible implications of using 1000v architecture with Cybertruck?

Battery, charging, etc?

Faster charging at the same current (same-ish connector and cable)
Lower resistive losses in wiring and/or lighter wiring.
Higher power band on motors (much reduced impact from back-EMF)
Needs higher voltage switching semiconductors (higher cost, usually a little less efficient)
Cables need higher rated insulation
 
But they haven't decreased the price. They have provided a limited time discount to help sell vehicles that people were delaying the purchase of because they expected to get the tax credit next year if they waited.

Just checked the configurator for just the base models:

- Model 3 - Dec 2022
- Model Y - Dec 2022 - March 2023
- Model S - Dec 2022 - Feb 2023
- Model X - Mar 2023 - Jun 2023

The limited time discount is for the Model 3 and Y only in the US, so the theory fits. Never mind! Thanks!
 
What's the hard data on % of semi loads that use the max legal limit? It's only like 10% right?

If so then worrying about the Semi not getting exactly the max GVW limit is pretty silly. That would be like saying a Model Y won't work because 10% of the population doesn't live near superchargers.
Ok, I hear you in regards to GM...though Tesla isn't seeing a temporary dip in demand (especially in China and Europe which just started getting non-naval delivery), unless its due to the US tax credit coming into effect on 1/1/2023 or long wait times and cancellations are occurring. There's plenty of market to capture with significant demand tailwinds behind their backs now compared to any year in the past as a public company.
Has to be somewhat of a dip to require a price incentive no? Or at least they just need to goose buyers slightly to make them move. My money is on tax credit confusion. If WE are confused, then surely the average buyer has no idea what's going on.