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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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No. I’m sorry. But this is called justification after the fact. I invested in a company headed up by Elon Musk.
You do know that Elon isn’t immortal, right?

But seriously, long term investors have been wondering for years when Elon would step away from Tesla. We’ve always known that his true love was SpaceX even as he has had flings with other companies. Twitter is only the latest pretty face that has caught his eye. Long time watchers know this affair won’t last long and he’ll be back begging to be allowed to sleep again at both SpaceX and Tesla. But at some point, we always knew he was going to have to settle down with only one main squeeze, and we knew it was going to be his original paramour, SpaceX (I mean, original after the divorce from Paypal).

But Elon is not an immoral man, and it looks like he has groomed a steady and stable breadwinner to replace him at Tesla. The kids will feel betrayed in the short term, but I’m sure they’ll come around eventually.
 
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Does the Rolodex imply that those therein are mostly retired or deceased?
The Smithsonian says they’re still produced, but I suspect only Warren Buffet, Charlie Munger,
Joe Biden, Mitch McConnell share your attraction for them.

We need to define ‘useless’
You're forgetting Bernie Sanders.
And Captain America.😁
 
  • Funny
Reactions: capster and unk45
If I may, I'd like to put some focus back on the long-term view and I'm overdue for an annual update. Here's my previous updates for reference:

1. From 2020 comparing the market & TSLA to the Dot-com bust

2. One year later (2021)

Here is where we are now:​

1. Nasdaq 5-year performance (trailing 5 year windows):


95 - 2000 (Dot-com): +456%

Dec 2015 - Dec 2020: +157%
Dec 2016 - Dec 2021: +190%
Dec 2017 - Dec 2022: +60%


2. Sampling of biggest individual performers from Dot-Com and initial Covid disruption:


95-2000 (avg 11x - 40x)
  • Intel: +998%
  • Cisco: +3,910%
  • Oracle: +1,220%
  • Microsoft: +1,600%

Dec 2015 - Dec 2020 (avg 2.5x - 6x)
  • Apple: +401%
  • Amazon: +375%
  • Netflix: +361%
  • Facebook: +155%
  • Zoom: +559% (measures from IPO in 2019)
  • TSLA: +1,234% (wow!)

Dec 2016 - 2021 (1.5x - 3x)
  • Apple: +148%
  • Amazon: +338%
  • Netflix: +339%
  • Facebook: +184%
  • Zoom: +222% (measures from IPO in 2019)
  • TSLA: +2,085% (holy cow!)

Dec 2017 - Dec 2022 (big spread! -34% all the way to +725%)
  • Apple: +226%
  • Amazon: +53%
  • Netflix: +63%
  • Facebook: -34% (ooof!)
  • Zoom: +16% (measures from IPO in 2019)
  • TSLA: +725% (wow!)


3. S&P 500 P/E


Dot-com: 44
Covid Peak: ~37
Current: 20.62

Source: S&P 500 PE Ratio


4. Yields


Current average earnings yields (E/P) are:
  • Dot-com: ~2.2% (1/44)
  • Dec 2020: ~3-3.3% (1/29.5)
  • Covid Peak: ~2.7-2.9% (1/37)
  • Now: ~4.7-5.2% (1/20)
Meaning, investors expect about a 4.7-5.2% return for every dollar they put in to S&P500 type equity now vs the 2% they expected during the dot-com bust and the 2.7-2.9% at the covid rally peak.

10-year US bonds:
  • Dot-com: ~6% (crazy! investors went nuts investing in 2% yield equity versus 6% risk free!!)
  • Covid Peak: ~1.5-1.7%ish (sensible, basically no return in bonds versus ~3% in equity -- TINA -- there is no alternative)
  • Now: 3.5-4% (likely going higher than 4%)

    View attachment 882870


Summary:


The one-two Fed punch of liquidity drying (fewer dollars needing to find a home) against an increasingly enticing risk-free return rate (I-bonds hit over 9% for individuals!) makes for a very different landscape for investors. Companies with weak to no earnings have gotten particularly punished.

As a whole, commodities prices have declined substantially from covid peaks. Supply chain shortages have eased significantly and surpluses have popped up in retail here and there. This and other factors have clearly sowed concern and pricing-in of some amount of recession on top of normal interest rate correction.

Much has been written about Elon and the leadership team at Tesla lately. Tesla continues to be an incredible outlier. We've seen a meteoric rise in valuation at just the right time as substantial earnings began to be produced.

It's clear that what was written in 2020 still applies:


And we can now add the following:
  • weathered and continued >50% growth during a historic pandemic supply chain disruption masterfully (remember the chip shortage? battery shortage? parts shortages?)
  • Took advantage of a monetary and fiscal stimulus environment to raise capital at premium valuations and ramped a gigafactory in China to a current run-rate over 1m vehicles while also building two new gigafactories
And now enjoys:
  • industry leading margins, earnings, growth
  • virtually no debt
  • ~$20b war chest of cash
There's so much more that could be added to those lists, but I'll leave it here. The future is bright.
Posts like this are the reason TMC is the single best place to get intelligent views on Tesla.
could not agree more. long term it is pretty much near impossible to keep stock down if company is growing profits rapidly, which Tesla most certainly is. i tried my best to see returns anywhere closer to tesla and could not find any. Tesla stock return for 2022 is -50.76% and while i certainly hope/expect this figure to improve before 2022 is over. but assuming this is where Tesla stock ends 2022 then we will have the following scenario:
Tesla in its entire history since 2010 has never ever ended an entire year in negative except 2016 when it was down -10.97%
Tesla annual returns:
2010 +57.5%
2011 +7.25%
2012 +18.59%
2013 +344.14% this was the first time market realized Tesla's true potential
2014 +47.85%
2015 +7.91%
2016 -10.97% this was the only year tesla closed negative and 2016 from 12-31-15 through 12-2-16 was actually down -24.39% and through 12-8-16 was down -19.88%. 2016 was SCTY and one of worst declines in tesla history in early 2016
so what happens next year? that will be 2017
2017 +45.70%
2018 +6.89% remember 2018 was a bad year when 420 tweet came out in august
2019 +25.70%
2020 +743.44%
2021 +49.76%
2022 so far as of 12-8-22 -50.76%
and the year is not over yet
i got lot more stuff to add but need to put babies to bed, so later
 
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Posts like this are the reason TMC is the single best place to get intelligent views on Tesla.
could not agree more. long term it is pretty much near impossible to keep stock down if company is growing profits rapidly, which Tesla most certainly is. i tried my best to see returns anywhere closer to tesla and could not find any. Tesla stock return for 2022 is -50.76% and while i certainly hope/expect this figure to improve before 2022 is over. but assuming this is where Tesla stock ends 2022 then we will have the following scenario:
Tesla in its entire history since 2010 has never ever ended an entire year in negative except 2016 when it was down -10.97%
Tesla annual returns:
2010 +57.5%
2011 +7.25%
2012 +18.59%
2013 +344.14% this was the first time market realized Tesla's true potential
2014 +47.85%
2015 +7.91%
2016 -10.97% this was the only year tesla closed negative and 2016 from 12-31-15 through 12-2-16 was actually down -24.39% and through 12-8-16 was down -19.88%. 2016 was SCTY and one of worst declines in tesla history in early 2016
so what happens next year? that will be 2017
2017 +45.70%
2018 +6.89% remember 2018 was a bad year when 420 tweet came out in august
2019 +25.70%
2020 +743.44%
2021 +49.76%
2022 so far as of 12-8-22 -50.76%
and the year is not over yet
i got lot more stuff to add but need to put babies to bed, so later
Lol doesn't this post just show that this is the worst year in TSLA history in terms of returns?
 
Well we complain you can't get anyone on the phone at Tesla.




The purpose of the call is to save the order. However, if that fails, the case owner must attempt to contact the customer three more times in the next three days.

If that fails, the case is referred to a manager, who initiates contact with the customer within 24 hours. The manager makes five attempts in five days to reach the buyer.

...it continues.
 
Well we complain you can't get anyone on the phone at Tesla.




The purpose of the call is to save the order. However, if that fails, the case owner must attempt to contact the customer three more times in the next three days.

If that fails, the case is referred to a manager, who initiates contact with the customer within 24 hours. The manager makes five attempts in five days to reach the buyer.

...it continues.
To be fair, Tesla did this (called customers/depositors to try and convince them to buy the Model S) at the beginning of 2013.
 
To be fair, Tesla did this (called customers/depositors to try and convince them to buy the Model S) at the beginning of 2013.
Yup early model S had lots of teething issues which resulted in cancelation. The exact same is happening with Lucid right now as the forum is flooded with electrical, software and quality issues.

Difference is Tesla was bleeding 30M a quarter, not 800M.
 
This is ugly. Hope they haven’t realized to much of that FSD money yet. I wonder how big the bill will be if they have to return all the FSD money.

 
Is he refuting the Morgan Stanley $3B margin loan for Twitter here?

I don’t see anything about margin loans in Ferragu’s tweet thread there, so I’m not sure what provoked Elon’s comment.

I think he was insinuating that overleveraged investors are partly responsible for the poor performance this year.
 
Is he refuting the Morgan Stanley $3B margin loan for Twitter here?

I don’t see anything about margin loans in Ferragu’s tweet thread there, so I’m not sure what provoked Elon’s comment.
He is saying, you can cite as many reasons why a stock should go up or down but macro will always make you his b&#&h so don't use margin loans when buying any stocks.
 
Yep. What does that mean? Is this a nothing burger? Sounds kinda serious but I know nothing about the law.
VC funds a lot of promises and lots of them fail. Only a few turned out to be frauds, like Thernos. Why? Because they claimed that it works by faking results. Kind of hard to fake results of FSD when it's installed in your own car and you witness what work and what doesn't everyday. Yes the company can say what aspirationally one day they hope it will become.

As long as the company doesn't lie about their current capabilities and status then they can promise whatever they want. Elon always caveat his statement with "once the we solve autonomy"..so not a person paid Tesla money based on the premise that it's already solved so its not fraud ever.
 
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