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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Times are tough right now. It's tough to be a consumer in this economy. Tough to be an employee (my longtime colleague was laid off last week). Tough to be an investor--and tough to be a TSLA investor--especially one who has held during the long fall from the $400+s. And for personal reasons, tough to be a father right now.

But my general impression is this: not only are these "the times that try men's souls", but these are also the times where a visionary, forward-looking company like Tesla takes massive steps forward relative to their competitors.

For the longest time, Tesla was first mover and there was no second-mover. OK, there was the Leaf and maybe a few other EVs, but they either weren't designed well, were compliance cars, or sputtered out for one or many reasons.

Then, late in the last decade, legacy automakers finally got a clue and jumped into the EV race. Tesla still had a massive headstart, but finally there were competitors.

Cut to quarantine: While other companies struggled to produce enough parts or deliver cars, Tesla innovated and "made-do" in every way they knew how to keep their supply chain going as well as they could, and avoided much of the supply and logistics problems to which other automakers fell prey. And now, in 2023, with inflation, rapid increases in interest rates, and fear of recession, buyers have pulled back from large purchases. Demand has fallen for all large purchases, and it's an environment from which Tesla is not immune.

But look at what's happened in Tesla's arena: GM, Ford, and Stellantis are fighting unions and huge wage costs, while simultaneously dialing back their plans in the EV space. BMW continues to pretend like EVs aren't the future. Toyota continues to hedge on some fantasy that hydrogen makes sense. VW struggles with software. Rivian continues to fight to contain costs, Lucid is so far in the red that even breaking even someday seems like a pipe dream, and that situation is getting worse. Cruise is pausing all driverless activities and "rebuilding public trust".

Meanwhile, Tesla is ramping up factories (at the expense of short-term margins). They continue to ramp their 4680 battery technology, and attack the supply chain bottlenecks by setting up vertically-integrated lithium refining. They're building out their compute architecture--Dojo and NVidia, while continuing to attack FSD and develop TeslaBot. And they're preparing to mass-produce semis, which will continue to have high demand far into the future as shipping and logistics companies see the light on how much electric class-8 trucks can save them.

While it's tough now--some day--and I pray sooner rather than later for my own sanity--we'll come out of this on the other side. Rates will begin dropping, spending on large purchases will again increase, and money will flow back into stocks.

Who will be best positioned to dominate? Who will have attacked their costs in such a furious, psychopathic manner to have squeezed every penny out of their costs that they could?

Who will have developed their own internal battery technology to squeeze every Watt and Watt-hr out of every square centimeter of battery? Who will have a more developed, more refined self-driving system?

It's not fun watching the price drop. But I know where it's headed, and I don't want to miss it. Now if only I knew WHEN it was headed there...
 
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When the government list came out on whether a vehicle would be considered a truck/SUV or a car, Model Y was initially excluded from the truck/SUV list and therefore had to meet the $55K price threshold instead of the truck/suv $80K threshold

Yeah, there's a little more nuance to the Gov't / IRS category which affected Model Y. Initially (early January) only the 7-Seater Model Y was classified as an SUV (the IRS chose to use some archane EPA Federal classification system). The 5-Seater Model Y, which is the vast majority of sales, apparently was not a SUV and therefore was ineligible for the IRA credit. :p (discussed at length here back in Jan)

Tesla fought back quickly with a power move (enabled by their superior margin), and cut the base price so that 5-seater Ys would be eligible. The IRA quickly saw the error of their ways, and reclassified all Model Y trims as SUVs (the gummit couldn't believe a company would cut $10K+ just to save their customers $7.5K).

Tesla turns up heat on rivals with global price cuts | REUTERS (Jan 13, 2023)

Tesla New York on Twitter: "Deutsche Bank views Tesla cuts as ‘bold offensive move, which secures Tesla’s volume growth, puts its traditional & EV competitors in great difficulty, & showcases Tesla’s considerable pricing power & cost superiority’; Reiterates Buy & $250 PT on $TSLA 🏣

Deutsche Bank on Tesla (TSLA): 'this could be the cut to end all cuts' / Twitter

FmYQDBEXEAo8ETL


Well, Deutsche Bank got it half right: this wasn't the 'cut-to-end-all-cuts', but it was the cut that ended all other EV's competitiveness.

Cheers!
"Fortune Favours the Bold!" -- Regimental motto of 22 SA
 
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Initially (early January) only the 7-Seater Model Y was classified as an SUV (the IRS chose to use some archane EPA classification system. The 5-Seater Model Y, which is the vast majority of sales, was not a SUV and therefore was ineligible for the IRA credit.
The IRS used the standard Federal definitions for truck (of which SUV is a type) vs passenger car. They later pivoted to using the EPA classifications (legislation allows the EPA administrator to group vehicles outside the normal Federal bounds).
 

It was first shared by Tesla owner and a regular reader of The Driven, Nash, and shared on Twitter/X. Owners of the 75 kWh battery-equipped models now have the option to upgrade to either a 90 kWh or a 100 kWh battery pack.

This is in Australia, but they may also do it on other RHD countries with 75D models and no prospect of ordering a new Model S/X.

The upgraded battery packs will come at a price of $27,000 for the 90 kWh option and those looking at the 100 kWh pack, it’d set owners back $45,000.

These prices would be AUD.
 
Toyota are criminal masterminds. They speak of solid state batteries, fuel cells, BYD partnerships and manual EVs. This encourages other competitors to foolishly spend their money competing with Tesla. Once they are all dead, they will buy Comma.ai for $1m and make robotaxis in colours Elon doesn't like.

*Possible true story
This reminds me of a story about three-time NASCAR champion Darrel Waltrip. This was back in his heyday when his team seemed to win every race. They were always testing out parts from different vendors. If they came across a part that was of particularly poor quality, they would order several cases. Then when other teams would visit the garage, they would see the crappy parts thinking those were what Waltrip's team used. You can guess what happens next.
 
But if you just google 'TSLA' you get a bunch of ignorant stories with titles like 'Tesla down as panasonic cuts EV batteries due to low demand'. Its just an absolute brainless zero-comprehension take on the actual facts.
Or as I like to put it, trading on the (reverse) news sentiment. We get this situation in cycles. A few smart people call it like it is and others have an agenda. As long as the smart people aren't changing their tune and Elon isn't selling then it should be a buying opportunity.
 
Times are tough right now. It's tough to be a consumer in this economy. Tough to be an employee (my longtime colleague was laid off last week). Tough to be an investor--and tough to be a TSLA investor--especially one who has held during the long fall from the $400+s. And for personal reasons, tough to be a father right now.

But my general impression is this: not only are these "the times that try men's souls", but these are also the times where a visionary, forward-looking company like Tesla takes massive steps forward relative to their competitors.

For the longest time, Tesla was first mover and there was no second-mover. OK, there was the Leaf and maybe a few other EVs, but they either weren't designed well, were compliance cars, or sputtered out for one or many reasons.

Then, late in the last decade, legacy automakers finally got a clue and jumped into the EV race. Tesla still had a massive headstart, but finally there were competitors.

Cut to quarantine: While other companies struggled to produce enough parts or deliver cars, Tesla innovated and "made-do" in every way they knew how to keep their supply chain going as well as they could, and avoided much of the supply and logistics problems to which other automakers fell prey. And now, in 2023, with inflation, rapid increases in interest rates, and fear of recession, buyers have pulled back from large purchases. Demand has fallen for all large purchases, and it's an environment from which Tesla is not immune.

But look at what's happened in Tesla's arena: GM, Ford, and Stellantis are fighting unions and huge wage costs, while simultaneously dialing back their plans in the EV space. BMW continues to pretend like EVs aren't the future. Toyota continues to hedge on some fantasy that hydrogen makes sense. VW struggles with software. Rivian continues to fight to contain costs, Lucid is so far in the red that even breaking even someday seems like a pipe dream, and that situation is getting worse. Cruise is pausing all driverless activities and "rebuilding public trust".

Meanwhile, Tesla is ramping up factories (at the expense of short-term margins). They continue to ramp their 4680 battery technology, and attack the supply chain bottlenecks by setting up vertically-integrated lithium refining. They're building out their compute architecture--Dojo and NVidia, while continuing to attack FSD and develop TeslaBot. And they're preparing to mass-produce semis, which will continue to have high demand far into the future as shipping and logistics companies see the light on how much electric class-8 trucks can save them.

While it's tough now--some day--and I pray sooner rather than later for my own sanity--we'll come out of this on the other side. Rates will begin dropping, spending on large purchases will again increase, and money will flow back into stocks.

Who will be best positioned to dominate? Who will have attacked their costs in such a furious, psychopathic manner to have squeezed every penny out of their costs that they could?

Who will have developed their own internal battery technology to squeeze every Watt and Watt-hr out of every square centimeter of battery? Who will have a more developed, more refined self-driving system?

It's not fun watching the price drop. But I know where it's headed, and I don't want to miss it. Now if only I knew WHEN it was headed there...
We hear ya, brother! This is all very annoying. I bought a couple dozen shares today so that I can point to *something* positive coming out of all this BS (me owning more shares… even if it’s just a little more). We are patient yet impatient. I need to learn to meditate.
 
Times are tough right now. It's tough to be a consumer in this economy. Tough to be an employee (my longtime colleague was laid off last week). Tough to be an investor--and tough to be a TSLA investor--especially one who has held during the long fall from the $400+s. And for personal reasons, tough to be a father right now.

But my general impression is this: not only are these "the times that try men's souls", but these are also the times where a visionary, forward-looking company like Tesla takes massive steps forward relative to their competitors.

For the longest time, Tesla was first mover and there was no second-mover. OK, there was the Leaf and maybe a few other EVs, but they either weren't designed well, were compliance cars, or sputtered out for one or many reasons.

Then, late in the last decade, legacy automakers finally got a clue and jumped into the EV race. Tesla still had a massive headstart, but finally there were competitors.

Cut to quarantine: While other companies struggled to produce enough parts or deliver cars, Tesla innovated and "made-do" in every way they knew how to keep their supply chain going as well as they could, and avoided much of the supply and logistics problems to which other automakers fell prey. And now, in 2023, with inflation, rapid increases in interest rates, and fear of recession, buyers have pulled back from large purchases. Demand has fallen for all large purchases, and it's an environment from which Tesla is not immune.

But look at what's happened in Tesla's arena: GM, Ford, and Stellantis are fighting unions and huge wage costs, while simultaneously dialing back their plans in the EV space. BMW continues to pretend like EVs aren't the future. Toyota continues to hedge on some fantasy that hydrogen makes sense. VW struggles with software. Rivian continues to fight to contain costs, Lucid is so far in the red that even breaking even someday seems like a pipe dream, and that situation is getting worse. Cruise is pausing all driverless activities and "rebuilding public trust".

Meanwhile, Tesla is ramping up factories (at the expense of short-term margins). They continue to ramp their 4680 battery technology, and attack the supply chain bottlenecks by setting up vertically-integrated lithium refining. They're building out their compute architecture--Dojo and NVidia, while continuing to attack FSD and develop TeslaBot. And they're preparing to mass-produce semis, which will continue to have high demand far into the future as shipping and logistics companies see the light on how much electric class-8 trucks can save them.

While it's tough now--some day--and I pray sooner rather than later for my own sanity--we'll come out of this on the other side. Rates will begin dropping, spending on large purchases will again increase, and money will flow back into stocks.

Who will be best positioned to dominate? Who will have attacked their costs in such a furious, psychopathic manner to have squeezed every penny out of their costs that they could?

Who will have developed their own internal battery technology to squeeze every Watt and Watt-hr out of every square centimeter of battery? Who will have a more developed, more refined self-driving system?

It's not fun watching the price drop. But I know where it's headed, and I don't want to miss it. Now if only I knew WHEN it was headed there...
Good writing, but, where is BYD, which is considered as Tesla's biggest competitor in China?
 
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Tesla and Anti-Union Elon Musk Make Enticing Targets for UAW's Next Push

Even if this is a "wish" story, the fact is the new pay raises the UAW received will effect all non union plants. Toyota and Honda will match or come close to the pay raise percentages. Tesla will have too also.
Do we have any actual insight into how Tesla compares to others in regards to line workers compensation? It's not just a question of their comparative salaries / hourly rates, since stock options for example may or may not effectively increase the attractiveness of a job at Tesla vs other makes. After all, as even if stock options were always effectively making Tesla employees more compensated overall, some percentage of workers probably would prefer increased paychecks now to stock options for later - the question is how many, and is it in any way significant?
 
Good writing, but, where is BYD, which is considered as Tesla's biggest competitor in China?


We have Model Y and Model 3 + 5 BYD cars making up the top 7 selling electric vehicles in the world.

If we compare and contrast:-
  • BYD has more models including some lower priced models.
  • BYD is adding new models faster.
  • BYD is growing revenues fast, but Tesla makes more gross margin per car.
  • Both have energy storage products.
  • Both make batteries.
  • Tesla has Supercharging, insurance, FSD, Optimus which BYD doesn't have.
  • BYD makes some of it's own computer chips.
What we can say is that these 2 companies are leading the charge on EVs at present, and if anything both are likely to extend their lead of the rest of the car industry.

Dig deeper and they are different companies with different strategies, there is room for both.

The big difference is in areas like FSD and Optimus where as far as I can tell BYD currently isn't even trying to complete.

BYD seem more happy to mainly be a battery and car company, but that might change.
 
some percentage of workers probably would prefer increased paychecks now to stock options for later - the question is how many, and is it in any way significant?

The way that stock options are awarded to hourly workers practically guarantees a 15% bonus via all suck stock grants, to a maximum of $10K biannually plus realized gains at time of sale. Much more detail is provided in Tesla's 10-Q.
 
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Well, by my calculations, Tuesday's close will mark 500 trading days since TSLA's ATH. TSLA has only had 2 other periods of time where the stock took longer to finally exceed any closing price. On 9/4/2014 the stock closed at a split - adjusted $19.07 and did not exceed that closing price for 649 days. Then again, on 9/18/2017, the stock closed at a split - adjusted $25.67 and did not exceed that closing price for 567 days. Here's to hoping we don't beat either of those times in sideways trading history (even if it seems likely ATM)
 
BYD seem more happy to mainly be a battery and car company, but that might change.

BYD is in trouble after a precipitous drop in free cash flow (FCF) during Q3: (less-efficient production, a China-centric auto-market, and price-pressure from Tesla)

AJ on X: "🔥 BYD's third-quarter financial report revealed a significant downturn in free cash flow, plummeting by -$7.3 billion from a robust +$4.8 billion to a concerning -$2.6 billion.​
This drastic drop, disclosed by the company today, was primarily propelled by a staggering contraction in operating free cash flows, plummeting by -$7.1 billion from a healthy +$9.3 billion to a mere +$2.2 billion.​
Despite a relatively modest increase of $200 million in capital expenditures (quarter-on-quarter), these figures underscore a challenging quarter for BYD."​
/X (8:08 ET · Oct 30, 2023)​
 
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...

This is in Australia, but they may also do it on other RHD countries with 75D models and no prospect of ordering a new Model S/X.

"The upgraded battery packs will come at a price of $27,000 for the 90 kWh option and those looking at the 100 kWh pack, it’d set owners back $45,000."

These prices would be AUD.

Converted to USD, that seems to be over $17,000 US for the 90 kWh battery and over $28,500 for the 100 kWh battery.

Those prices seem high, and would be off-putting to fence-sitters and provide more ammo for the ICE holdouts. Does Australia have a large sales tax or VAT and is that already included? I would assume the price includes any "credit" for turning in the "old" 75 kWh pack...but if anything that must be minimal it seems.

However the numbers break down, not many folks are going to like the idea of the battery on a car (which now starts at $75,000 US) costing a whopping $28,500 to replace. That's a huge fraction...and like I said, ammo for the anti-EV folks. What of the Long Range Model 3 and Y batteries of roughly 80 kWh? Just scaling with that pricey 100 kWh battery, it will be easy for FUD media to say a 3/Y battery replacement would be over $22,000 US...yikes.

Also, I wonder where the packs are coming from...since the 90 kWh pack isn't in production anymore, and since the article mentions the caveat of battery pack availability, I wonder if these replacement packs are refurbished?
 
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Converted to USD, that seems to be over $17,000 US for the 90 kWh battery and over $28,500 for the 100 kWh battery.

Those prices seem high, and would be off-putting to fence-sitters and provide more ammo for the ICE holdouts. Does Australia have a large sales tax or VAT and is that already included? I would assume the price includes any "credit" for turning in the "old" 75 kWh pack...but if anything that must be minimal it seems.

However the numbers break down, not many folks are going to like the idea of the battery on a car (which now starts at $75,000 US) costing a whopping $28,500 to replace. That's a huge fraction...and like I said, ammo for the anti-EV folks. What of the Long Range Model 3 and Y batteries of roughly 80 kWh? Just scaling with that pricey 100 kWh battery, it will be easy for FUD media to say a 3/Y battery replacement would be over $22,000 US...yikes.

Also, I wonder where the packs are coming from...since the 90 kWh pack isn't in production anymore, and since the article mentions the caveat of battery pack availability, I wonder if these replacement packs are refurbished?
There is 10% VAT (GST) in Australia but that is usually included in a list price when it isn't mentioned.

The prices is unusual because they are steering people in the direction of buying the 90 kWh pack.

Perhaps they are using up some old packaging inventory, or the 90 kWh pack is an 100 kWh pack software locked?

The cheapest EV you can buy in Australia us about the same price as the 100 kWh pack.