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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Here is a sample bear and bull case for 2025, which Ark Invest published in 2021:

View attachment 1027042

View attachment 1027043

Via - https://www.ark-invest.com/articles/valuation-models/tesla-price-target-2

Please tell me how either the bull or bear cases are based in reality.

Here was their 2024 price target and scenarios, published in 2020:
View attachment 1027046

Via - https://ark-invest.com/articles/analyst-research/tesla-price-target

In December 2021, she stated she expected 40% CAGR from her funds. Let's take a look:

View attachment 1027044

Looks very close!

View attachment 1027048
View attachment 1027049


Anyone taking this woman seriously does so at their own peril.
She believes that Tesla will start a robotaxi service by 2025. That's not out of the realm of possibility.

If FSD is good enough to start a trial similar to what Waymo is doing then $TSLA could skyrocket. This would be based on market recognition of Tesla's approach as the only scalable solution available. Tesla could eventually own the rideshare market worldwide and that would get investors very, very excited.

A lot would have to fall in place for this to all happen by 2025. But it's not crazy to think that it could happen. It is a credible (but risky) investment thesis.
 
Here is a sample bear and bull case for 2025, which Ark Invest published in 2021:

View attachment 1027042

View attachment 1027043

Via - https://www.ark-invest.com/articles/valuation-models/tesla-price-target-2

Please tell me how either the bull or bear cases are based in reality.

Here was their 2024 price target and scenarios, published in 2020:
View attachment 1027046

Via - https://ark-invest.com/articles/analyst-research/tesla-price-target

In December 2021, she stated she expected 40% CAGR from her funds. Let's take a look:

View attachment 1027044

Looks very close!

View attachment 1027048
View attachment 1027049


Anyone taking this woman seriously does so at their own peril.

Cathie didn't anticipate Tesla dropping their margins so incredibly low so quickly, nor did she predict the growth slowdown we are experiencing this year. She also anticipated Gen3 would be out by 2025 even in her bull case.

Honestly most of us here didn't anticipate any of these surprise negatives happening either. Mathematically her price target wouldn't be so silly if Gen3 was starting production in early 2025 or if we still had margins like we did over a year ago, or if we were still expecting to be following the 50% CAGR for the next two years.

It's easy to laugh at her now in hindsight, but she was just overly optimistic. Many of us were. 😞
 
I mean, all valuation attempts use assumptions. At least I lay out some of mine. Most people here don't seem to have attempted a quantitative valuation, but love to criticize those who do - if those number don't say the stock is gonna moon.

You can modify the numbers as you see fit, and have a discussion on why you think yours are more reasonable.


Yes, and TSLA's free cash flow has plumetted almost 50% in 2023 from 2022. It is up 14% from 2021. TSLA free cash flow yield is 0.77%, that's extremely low.



My attempts are mostly about trying to understand what the market is going to value TSLA at over the next year or two. In my opinion, that will be based on forecasts they make for maybe the next 5 years at most. People may claim that's "short term thinking", and that's okay, you are welcome to not engage. But I think it's mostly hypocritical because most people are checking the share price daily, making decisions like when to sell for a house downpayment, and are definitely thinking about things in the short term (along with the long).

If Tesla grows 20% annualized production for the next 5 years, then they will be producing 5 million cars annually then. Or if they grow closer to 30%, they will get there around 4 years. That's how I come up with 5 million.

Tesla TTM operating margin peaked between 16-17% I believe during the supply constrained boom in EV prices.


I think it will be hard to get back to those operating margins on automotive without another supply crunch x demand boom. So I estimate 10%. Let's says it goes up to 12%, that's a 50% increase for current levels. Optimistic but maybe possible.

On ASP, I believe I went too low, mistaking what they currently are. ASP is now allegedly $42500. Next gen vehicle will bring that down but not a full $10,000. Let's say $37,500 ASP.

5 million at $37,500 ASP and 12% operating margin = 22.5 billion in net income. At a PE ratio of 40, this supports a market cap of 900 billion, or ~ a $288 share price.

So, I think automotive + energy upside supports a $300 share price eventually. But I don't think it will happen untl Tesla can prove operating margins are trending up to where the market can make such assumptions like 12% operating margins.
For Free Cash Flow only, the yield is relevant but should not be the determining factor. Given all factors I think it should remain high, simply to avoid any need for external debt for anything other than securitization of sold products, primarily vehicles now but also for TE products as they grow. Without question yield of FCF will never be justification for the levels needed.

I have opinions about margins on vehicle sales and energy products, including Supercharging. I avoid expressing those too directly simply be others dodo regularly, and my opinions will to add to the discussion by people who make their living from their prognostications. I do agree that much larger margins than any major competitors are likely to be a counting condition precedent to major share price escalation, notwithstanding the assured high volatility until the beneficiaries select a new target. Nvidia and Meta might both be future targets, but more likely to be centered around AI, so Microsoft may well also be a prospect. Those and others have not yet had the obsessive speculation from large numbers of retail investors that has been a condition precedent for market makers, etc to foment really high volatility. Still, TSLA has been their target for quite a long time so a new favored manipulation is overdue. Of course, as always, that is a personal view.
 
She believes that Tesla will start a robotaxi service by 2025. That's not out of the realm of possibility.

If FSD is good enough to start a trial similar to what Waymo is doing then $TSLA could skyrocket. This would be based on market recognition of Tesla's approach as the only scalable solution available. Tesla could eventually own the rideshare market worldwide and that would get investors very, very excited.

A lot would have to fall in place for this to all happen by 2025. But it's not crazy to think that it could happen. It is a credible (but risky) investment thesis.
It's far out of the realm of possibility. Ain't going to happen. Edit - not in 2025. 2026, on the other hand... isn't looking too likely neither. Robotaxi's years away yet.

Edit - whaddaminnit; you want Tesla doing this "similar to what Waymo is doing"?? Who's side are you on?? Sure, TSLA would rocket all right. Straight down.

Seriously, you can keep re-numbering versions all you like, it makes little difference.
 
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Yeah. I thought the plan was to keep production high and lower prices if necessary... to support the mission.

Elon said they'd take margins basically to zero, so the lull in production is quite curious. Many were hoping for 490k-500k this quarter. Now it seems like ~440k-450k would be a fantastic result, if the recent reduction in estimates are accurate.
 
Yeah. I thought the plan was to keep production high and lower prices if necessary... to support the mission.
If Tesla kept production running at full throttle they will most likely be selling EVs at a lost. Elon is reacting to market conditions not trying to make the market he wants. Just like how you trade the market you get not trade the market you want.
 
Elon said they'd take margins basically to zero, so the lull in production is quite curious. Many were hoping for 490k-500k this quarter. Now it seems like ~440k-450k would be a fantastic result, if the recent reduction in estimates are accurate.
He said they could take them to zero and make money off FSD. That was not guidance that they ever plan to do so.
 
Cathie didn't anticipate Tesla dropping their margins so incredibly low so quickly, nor did she predict the growth slowdown we are experiencing this year. She also anticipated Gen3 would be out by 2025 even in her bull case.

Honestly most of us here didn't anticipate any of these surprise negatives happening either. Mathematically her price target wouldn't be so silly if Gen3 was starting production in early 2025 or if we still had margins like we did over a year ago, or if we were still expecting to be following the 50% CAGR for the next two years.

It's easy to laugh at her now in hindsight, but she was just overly optimistic. Many of us were. 😞
She is coming out with new price targets soon. And it sounds like they are going to be even higher.

According to a recent interview, her thesis is based on robotaxi and not the EV market.
 
She is coming out with new price targets soon. And it sounds like they are going to be even higher.

According to a recent interview, her thesis is based on robotaxi and not the EV market.
Hence people saying to follow her at your own risk.

Some believe Robotaxi will never happen, a majority think it's 5-10 years away (looking at polls here and elsewhere). It occurring in the next 1-2 years is not impossible, but the odds are incredibly low. It's like picking a specific number on roulette to bet all your money on it.

V12 is a few more steps forward than most releases, but also has some regressions. Testers of it are still postulating on when Tesla will be able to achieve a confident, consistently safe L2 ADAS, which is multiple levels below the Level 4 needed for successful Robotaxi on a small scale, much further away from a profitable Robotaxi.
 
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How possible it is for robotaxi to launch next year depends on how quickly end-to-end FSD can be improved.

Elon says V12.3 is a big enough improvement that it could be called V13. If that's true then the rate of improvement is pretty quick.

I'm in the camp it will be quick FSD progress from here on out for two reasons:

1) FSD going end to end enables faster progress, and
2) Tesla has enough compute now to train it very quickly.

I think FSD hitting Level 5 sometime in 2025 is likely. HOWEVER, I don't think it will be the immediate boon to TSLA that many others feel it will. I think (big) investors will remain pessimistic about the revenue potential of autonomy right up until it's bringing in revenues to the bottom line.
 
Q - how does the "free" market re-align after the Paris Climate Accord ends in 2024?...after signed into fruition around 11/2015?

Could driving towards sustainable solutions become a country-by-country thing? Maybe some more aggressive than the others?

e.g. Here's a Purdue study on macroeconomics impacts, citing inflation, back in 2021 due to the Paris Climate Accord.

 
That's a pretty typical Elon response to any release, 10.69 should arguably be called V11, 11.4 should arguably be called V12, etc.

Right. Which is why I said, "if that's true".

But if it is true then I'd say the improvement rate is pretty fast. 12.2 hasn't been out for very long. So if 12.3 is a big jump in performance then that bodes well for the improvement rate of the end-to-end approach.

Of course, it's only one data point and we will need to evaluate the rate of improvement over many releases.
 
With the Paris Climate Accord ending, it might be helpful to look back on...well...when the US, under Trump, decided to leave the Paris Climate Accord and the analyses back then on doing such a thing. Obviously, its not apples-to-apples as the clean energy transition and EV adoption is still happening regardless. We have the NACS standard across EVs happening in 2024 and fully adopted in production plans for EVs, rather than adaptors, 2025 and beyond, as an example.


We could be looking at a boon in 2025 in the free market. Maybe the rhetoric is all about who takes credit, more than if this gets done.
 
1710257904637.png


🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

Edit for coloring purposes ;)
 
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Here is a sample bear and bull case for 2025, which Ark Invest published in 2021:

View attachment 1027042

View attachment 1027043

Via - https://www.ark-invest.com/articles/valuation-models/tesla-price-target-2

Please tell me how either the bull or bear cases are based in reality.

Here was their 2024 price target and scenarios, published in 2020:
View attachment 1027046

Via - https://ark-invest.com/articles/analyst-research/tesla-price-target

In December 2021, she stated she expected 40% CAGR from her funds. Let's take a look:

View attachment 1027044

Looks very close!

View attachment 1027048
View attachment 1027049


Anyone taking this woman seriously does so at their own peril.
Again. You and others said the same thing the first time around when she had a ‘ridiculous’ valuation. And yet - it happened. As it happened when everyone was laughing and pointing fingers at Andrea James, calling for bankruptcy. It’s not relevant how close ‘they’ got to being right. They were serially dead wrong in the end.

I’ve no idea if Cathy is correct again or not. But she’s already been more correct than the dozens of vocal analysts who shouted her down before TSLA got to $6,000 (pre splits). Believe Jonas, Black, Gerber, et al at your own risk. Explain it all away as logically as you want and to your heart’s content. I’ll just continue to stand on the other side of the fence and wait patiently another decade.
 
Keep in mind the average auto loan in Feb. 2023 for new cars was around 7.48%. It is now about 9.68%. Certainly has an effect on sales.

Keep in mind even a 10% car loan at current prices is a lower monthly payment than when loans were 2% but Teslas prices were much higher.

So the "OMG car loan rates" thing continues to be a red herring. Price cuts have far outrun rate hikes.



She believes that Tesla will start a robotaxi service by 2025. That's not out of the realm of possibility.


She also anticipates them selling 5-10 million cars, which is outside the realm of possibility.

She also antipicates 50% gross margin, which is outside the realm of possibility.

She's got market cap at 1.5 to 4 trillion too. How likely do you think that is in 2025?


Even her model of the original target price years ago Tesla DID hit, the actual model was insanely wrong, she just got lucky, once, picking a target # that hit.

Her financial results of her funds ever since, and how far off any detailed items in her models turn out each year, continually prove this was a single lucky guess, not any actual competence at financial modeling.

The fact people still view her as a guru is insane.... For all the mocking Michael Burry gets here at least the one time HE was right also had accurate financial modeling to get there instead of a lucky guess.




That's her in 2017-- telling us how her 2020 price is based on Tesla having a significant share of the robotaxi market.