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BUt they do not. They lose an absolute fortune every day. Continuing to pretend that their business model is a success doesn't change the financials. Its a dumpster fire of google's cash, and as with EVERY other 'moonshot' attempt by google, they will get bored and cancel it one day.
Tesla has more serious autonomy competition from China than it has in the rest of the world combined.
Our local electricity prices become negative almost all weekend days now, and I have charged our 2 Teslas at negative or zero prices for the last couple of weeks now. I expect this will keep occurring until fall.
This afternoon the price drops to -5 eurocents/kWh for several hours.
It’s the price for the energy component. The distribution cost is still something like 10 to 15 cents, so still not entirely negative.
But yeah, most people don’t realise it’s possible to charge your car really cheaply without having to invest in solar.
As more renewable energy is added to the grid, I expect discounts on the distribution cost too in the not too far future. That would make the total price completely negative.
I can't work out if he's playing up to the right for tactical reasons or he really is one of them. I do hope it's the former, some of his current rhetoric is appalling to us early investors of a centrist to left leaning persuasion. I suppose it absolutely makes business sense to cosy up to Trump as there is a significant possibility he may yet get power and his regime in general would most likely be extremely hostile to EV's and renewables. Being seen as a friend may be the only valid option to avoid Tesla getting targeted.
It’s the price for the energy component. The distribution cost is still something like 10 to 15 cents, so still not entirely negative.
But yeah, most people don’t realise it’s possible to charge your car really cheaply without having to invest in solar.
As more renewable energy is added to the grid, I expect discounts on the distribution cost too in the not too far future. That would make the total price completely negative.
This is a key message to those in the UK who have been fed propaganda about EVs & Teslas. Some people state EVS are for short driving. I's say it's the opposite if you have a great charging network. High mileage usage is CHEAP!
Unfortunately, the UK regulator made the tariff (price plan) I use more expensive.
Today is 13p/kWh including distribution. There's also a daily standing charge. If I get solar & batteries, I'll disconnect the gas & lose the gas standing charge.
So (without looking it up) - wholesale electricity must be around 3 pence per kWh today. I'm not sure what they do when wholesale electricity goes negative. If the supplier (Octopus Tracker) stick to the formula, it should be possible to go negative. Lowest I've seen is 8.19p / kWh under the older, cheaper version I had last year.
This is the formula I'm on now - it's a whole day price which works for me as we spend so little on electricity for the cars, other usage is much higher. I just prioritise cars & heavy loads on cheaper days. If I used the cars more, there would be better choices (overnight sometimes goes negative).
Electricity unit charge: (We * 1.1890) + 9.1977 p per kWh
Gas unit charge: (Wg * 0.03604) + 1.3162 p per kWh
"For electricity, the wholesale price W[e], is the baseload average price (in p/kWh) from the previous day's N2EX GB Day-Ahead auction. For gas, the W is the day ahead or weekend price in p/therm on the previous working day from Marex Spectron.
Future:
More renewables & storage across Europe, interconnects to neighbouring counties develop even more, possibly including Spain & Morocco. Possibly over-provision house's solar & batteries. I'd love to be free of the grid, but I think wholesale costs will plunge as renewables become more widespread.
UK and other parts of Europe didn't get serious about renewables until Ukraine war. There were lots of anti-renewables lobbying from usual suspects.
Demand from datacentres in UK & rest of Europe? Possible but I think much of the compute will be in USA or some part of Europe with future excess of renewables such as Norway, Iceland or Spain.
Oh.. did someone say that Elon doesn’t pay enough attention to Tesla?
One week in the job, and I was already in a team meeting with him brainstorming Autopilot technical challenges, exactly how it went during my interview. And that went on almost every single week, for the 8+ years that followed
During that entire time, through all these chapters, news headlines and other difficult company-wide moments, and while landing rockets on drone ships in the ocean, Elon was still sitting with us in a room every week, often more, with the only objective of building things that will change humanity for the better.
100% agreed! Thank you for weighing in Rob Maurer.
This may be my last post here because I am directly assailing some of the powers that be on this site and that may result in my excommunicaton or virtual "defenestration." Yeah, I know what it means.
I'm astounded and appalled that any investors, retail or otherwise, will let their current concerns about Elon's politics or X antics affect their decision to ratify a compensation package that Musk earned with blood, sweat and tears to take Tesla from the cliff's edge to a fantastically successful company. A company that has fabulously rewarded those who invested in his vision when the future was seriously in doubt and continues to promise a bright future with a deep war chest in no small part due to Musk's wisdom and leadership in a turbulent present marred by war, economic woes and political division and relentless attacks designed specifically to destroy Tesla.
The package was pie in the sky and yet somehow Musk miraculously achieved it in the face of extraordinarily complex manufacturing and logistics challenges made even more difficult by supply chain sabotage, unprecedented shorting and relentless widespread FUD no doubt financed by the many industries Tesla was disrupting. And now comes a chancery court judge motivated almost entirely by political ambition to unilaterally strip the one CEO who put EVERYTHING on the line of a compensation package that most found absurd and foolish because it was perceived as being laughably unattainable! And what was the vehicle for this decision? An avaricious law firm using a shareholder with 9 shares (9!) to undermine the vote of 73% of shareholders and has the audacity to seek billions of dollars of compensation in, ironically, Tesla stock, for its "work." Seriously?! That alone is reason to vote a resounding "YES!"
Do those of you voting "no" not see the irony in the fact that this is the very crescendo of FUD you've pushed back against for years? It's as if you wish to bring the Götterdämmerung sought by the forces aligned against Elon Musk and Tesla?!
Finally, for those of you who unwittingly (or wittingly!) believe removing this and maybe ANY century's greatest visionary and industrialist from Tesla will benefit the company, take a long look in the mirror, because it's painfully obvious to me and many others here that you are letting your politics and personal bias unduly influence your decision in this vitally important vote. Use some other vehicle to push back against Musk for what you perceive to be a loss of focus or direction for the company. This vote is not about that! Nor is it a vote of confidence in him. It is a vote to reward him for what he accomplished in the face of unreal and unprecedented challenges and attacks!
Take a snap shot of this post of you agree with it, because it might not be up for very long.
I don't think anyone else could remove roadblocks as well as Elon. Faster, cheaper progress with him. Capital efficiency is fantastic compared to others.
Pay on results - not on appearances. I've seen enough execs who knew nothing, made bad decisions, sounded good to the ignorant and harmed their companies while being paid big salaries, bonuses , perks and more.
Every Musk company has excelled at what most believed to be impossible. There's a clue there somewhere...
Plus he works so many hours, that hours per company must be similar to other execs that are notionally full-time but really looking for next job upwards. That's where their focus is - not their current company.
100% agreed! Thank you for weighing in Rob Maurer.
This may be my last post here because I am directly assailing some of the powers that be on this site and that may result in my excommunicaton or virtual "defenestration." Yeah, I know what it means.
I'm astounded and appalled that any investors, retail or otherwise, will let their current concerns about Elon's politics or X antics affect their decision to ratify a compensation package that Musk earned with blood, sweat and tears to take Tesla from the cliff's edge to a fantastically successful company. A company that has fabulously rewarded those who invested in his vision when the future was seriously in doubt and continues to promise a bright future with a deep war chest in no small part due to Musk's wisdom and leadership in a turbulent present marred by war, economic woes and political division and relentless attacks designed specifically to destroy Tesla.
The package was pie in the sky and yet somehow Musk miraculously achieved it in the face of extraordinarily complex manufacturing and logistics challenges made even more difficult by supply chain sabotage, unprecedented shorting and relentless widespread FUD no doubt financed by the many industries Tesla was disrupting. And now comes a chancery court judge motivated almost entirely by political ambition to unilaterally strip the one CEO who put EVERYTHING on the line of a compensation package that most found absurd and foolish because it was perceived as being laughably unattainable! And what was the vehicle for this decision? An avaricious law firm using a shareholder with 9 shares (9!) to undermine the vote of 73% of shareholders and has the audacity to seek billions of dollars of compensation in, ironically, Tesla stock, for its "work." Seriously?! That alone is reason to vote a resounding "YES!"
Do those of you voting "no" not see the irony in the fact that this is the very crescendo of FUD you've pushed back against for years? It's as if you wish to bring the Götterdämmerung sought by the forces aligned against Elon Musk and Tesla?!
Finally, for those of you who unwittingly (or wittingly!) believe removing this and maybe ANY century's greatest visionary and industrialist from Tesla will benefit the company, take a long look in the mirror, because it's painfully obvious to me and many others here that you are letting your politics and personal bias unduly influence your decision in this vitally important vote. Use some other vehicle to push back against Musk for what you perceive to be a loss of focus or direction for the company. This vote is not about that! Nor is it a vote of confidence in him. It is a vote to reward him for what he accomplished in the face of unreal and unprecedented challenges and attacks!
Take a snap shot of this post of you agree with it, because it might not be up for very long.
I was going to blow off voting until I read this post. This inspired me to open the Etrade and 401k envelopes, log into ProxyVote, and vote for all the board supported items. I can't even begin to imagine the number of millionaires created by Tesla over the years. And I most certainly remember reading the tiers of the 2018 compensation package and almost no one (e.g the smart money) at the time thought that any of the tiers would be achieved. Color me impressed, obviously. The dude deserves every penny based solely on what he achieved for the company. End of story.
It’s the price for the energy component. The distribution cost is still something like 10 to 15 cents, so still not entirely negative.
But yeah, most people don’t realise it’s possible to charge your car really cheaply without having to invest in solar.
As more renewable energy is added to the grid, I expect discounts on the distribution cost too in the not too far future. That would make the total price completely negative.
I sort of agree, but the problem with the grid model is it puts control of electricity in the hands of too few people who don't have the consumers' best interest at heart. So we get grids that are not well maintained and political pressure to limit distributed energy production (solar panels and local area production).
It’s odd to me that so many people want Elon to leave or doesn’t think his contract should be honored but yet I honestly don’t know of any other companies that are as exciting as Tesla for auto, SpaceX for space, Neuralink for brain implants, etc. Can so many not see the common denominator here? He is the hammer that gets stuff done.
Look, if you don’t like Elon and hate his politics or whatever, fine. Sell your shares and move on to some other company. (Wish you would have done it before the vote.). But it really ticks me off when the shmucks want to stick around and ruin these companies out of some stupid vendetta. Makes them as bad as people like Chanos. And I spit on Chanos.
I can't work out if he's playing up to the right for tactical reasons or he really is one of them. I do hope it's the former, some of his current rhetoric is appalling to us early investors of a centrist to left leaning persuasion. I suppose it absolutely makes business sense to cosy up to Trump as there is a significant possibility he may yet get power and his regime in general would most likely be extremely hostile to EV's and renewables. Being seen as a friend may be the only valid option to avoid Tesla getting targeted.
what you see is what you get. any number of uber bulls here go on about how forthright he is. well, either he is, or he isn’t. The big thing is he needs to quit giving comfort to climate deniers. It is not good for the planet or the stock price.
But we do! I posted this data before. California requires companies running autonomous vehicles to report interventions based on clear definitions. You're not saying they're not available, you're either saying:
1. I haven't bothered looking at the data publicly provided
2. Waymo is reporting false numbers to the regulators.
You said by my logic Tesla is in a worse postion. But Tesla is not in a worse position because Tesla hasn't started yet. Waymo is losing millions on its robotaxi network and Tesla is losing zero.
I hope you do realize Tesla's losses related to FSD are easily quite large as well, as they are paying teams of engineers to develop the system, while current FSD revenue is relatively tiny. Waymo's loss comes from operations and development, but nobody can say for sure how much is each. Also, don't lose perspective here. Waymo has the luxury of choosing what they think is the best approach to reach the most profitable autonomy setup. They are owned by a company that generates 70B in free cashflow per year, their losses are almost a rounding error. Tesla's sensor stack was dictated by unit economics because one of their USPs early on has been "you're not buying a car, but you're buying a car that, after a few SW updates, it will drive you to work and then earn you money". That meant they were forced to choose the cheapest sensor stack that had a decent chance of getting the job done. But even today, 8 years later, the cameras are still nowhere close to the performance of a human eye, especially in rapidly changing lighting conditions and being able to quickly focus at different distances.
Not to mention that, out of Google's current projects, autonomy has the biggest chance of becoming the next cash making machine.
This is a false argument. Building cars is relatively easy when you don't need to make millions of them, or make a profit by selling them. If you want proof of that, just look at Rivian, Nio etc. Nio, for the majority of their company's life, didn't even own their own factory, but outsourced manufacturing to JAC. Apple had to give up because they couldn't make something that would make a dent in their company's financials. Not because they couldn't do something that a lot of startups are now able to do on sums that Apple spends on food and beverages for their employees each year. They could absolutely make a car (or purchase a dying startup that makes cars), but they couldn't make a car that could achieve market domination (and by extension, have some sort of moat) or make it autonomous. My own feeling is that the car bet was same as Meta's bet on the multiverse. They need to make sure they don't miss the next "platform change". This is what Zuck said as well. If AV are a thing, then people will be stuck for a number of minutes in vehicles with nothing to do and with the potential to be served content (and ads) on in-car screens.
I don't think Waymo will be able to get to 50k in 3 years because the losses will be too high to keep expanding. I believe Tesla is far more likely to be at 50k driverless robotaxis in 3 years because Tesla's cost per vehicle is far lower. And more importantly, their cost to run the service will be lower with a superior end-to-end FSD system.
If Tesla would start tomorrow, judging by publicly available intervention data, their operational costs on interventions alone would be ~100x higher than Waymo's. Based on data available today. Reported to regulators by Waymo (so presumed to be valid) and community-collected through the FSD tracker for Tesla. I think it's very safe to assume that Tesla's numbers collected internally are not miles better, as we well know Elon loves to point out even small mistakes in what media reports.
100% agreed! Thank you for weighing in Rob Maurer.
This may be my last post here because I am directly assailing some of the powers that be on this site and that may result in my excommunicaton or virtual "defenestration." Yeah, I know what it means.
I'm astounded and appalled that any investors, retail or otherwise, will let their current concerns about Elon's politics or X antics affect their decision to ratify a compensation package that Musk earned with blood, sweat and tears to take Tesla from the cliff's edge to a fantastically successful company. A company that has fabulously rewarded those who invested in his vision when the future was seriously in doubt and continues to promise a bright future with a deep war chest in no small part due to Musk's wisdom and leadership in a turbulent present marred by war, economic woes and political division and relentless attacks designed specifically to destroy Tesla.
The package was pie in the sky and yet somehow Musk miraculously achieved it in the face of extraordinarily complex manufacturing and logistics challenges made even more difficult by supply chain sabotage, unprecedented shorting and relentless widespread FUD no doubt financed by the many industries Tesla was disrupting. And now comes a chancery court judge motivated almost entirely by political ambition to unilaterally strip the one CEO who put EVERYTHING on the line of a compensation package that most found absurd and foolish because it was perceived as being laughably unattainable! And what was the vehicle for this decision? An avaricious law firm using a shareholder with 9 shares (9!) to undermine the vote of 73% of shareholders and has the audacity to seek billions of dollars of compensation in, ironically, Tesla stock, for its "work." Seriously?! That alone is reason to vote a resounding "YES!"
Do those of you voting "no" not see the irony in the fact that this is the very crescendo of FUD you've pushed back against for years? It's as if you wish to bring the Götterdämmerung sought by the forces aligned against Elon Musk and Tesla?!
Finally, for those of you who unwittingly (or wittingly!) believe removing this and maybe ANY century's greatest visionary and industrialist from Tesla will benefit the company, take a long look in the mirror, because it's painfully obvious to me and many others here that you are letting your politics and personal bias unduly influence your decision in this vitally important vote. Use some other vehicle to push back against Musk for what you perceive to be a loss of focus or direction for the company. This vote is not about that! Nor is it a vote of confidence in him. It is a vote to reward him for what he accomplished in the face of unreal and unprecedented challenges and attacks!
Take a snap shot of this post of you agree with it, because it might not be up for very long.
Some say this has gone down the drain and many good folks have left …
But even more worrying for me is why we see folks feeling that their posts will get thrashed/ deleted and they will get banned…?
I stand by the original quote from the guy who is kinda like a genius .
Someone we adore is waging a bet that the bird in bush ( like a genius guy) is worth twice than the one in hand ( POTUS).
THIS TRUCK LOOKS STUNNING! Lots of people in the showroom in Køge, Denmark today. Kids playing in and around the cars and lots of parents doing testdrives in Model 3 and Y.
.
I would have.
